Mechanics/Ruling Question

[Suudy]

First, I'm not a baseball official. But I've been a football official for a decade, and I'm seriously considering getting involved. I've been lurking here quite a bit trying to grasp a few things about obstruction and interference. To that end, I have a question about mechanics on these situations.

(I presume R1, R2, etc are the first runner, second runner, etc, regardless of base. Or do the numbers denote the base? Also, F1=pitcher, F2=catcher, etc. Am I right?)

First case. Runner on first, no outs. The infield is up for a bunt situation. The batter bunts a fair ball down the third base line. F5 charges in and gloves the ball. During the bunt, the second baseman obstructs R1. The throw to first by the F5 is over the head of the F3 and goes up the first base line (not into the dugout). R1 seeing the overthrow continues and tries to score. F9, after coming up, fields the ball and throws home well before R1 arrives and R1 is tagged by F2 before scoring. What's the call on this? The obstruction is ignored? Is R1 entitled to 2nd base, and any attempt to advance beyond that is at his own peril?

Second case. Same setup. Instead, R1 stop at 3rd. However, the batter, seeing the overthrow, tries to run to 2nd. The throw by F9 is in time to tag the batter at 2nd. The batter is out and R1 is safe? The obstruction is ignored?

Third case. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, no outs. R2 has a big lead off of 2nd. The batter hits a slow ground ball toward F6. R2 pushes F6, interfering with the play. R1 scores on the play. The batter is safe at first. I presume R2 is out. Does R1 return to the 3rd? Is the batter still safe at first?

For each of these, what are the mechanics? How do you indicate the obstruction or interference? In the case of interference, is the runner out immediately? (Edit: I was just reading some other threads, and in some cases the ball it seems the ball is dead immediately. Is that the case in any of these situations?)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Suudy

First, I'm not a baseball official. But I've been a football official for a decade, and I'm seriously considering getting involved. I've been lurking here quite a bit trying to grasp a few things about obstruction and interference. To that end, I have a question about mechanics on these situations.

(I presume R1, R2, etc are the first runner, second runner, etc, regardless of base. Or do the numbers denote the base? Also, F1=pitcher, F2=catcher, etc. Am I right?)

First case. Runner on first, no outs. The infield is up for a bunt situation. The batter bunts a fair ball down the third base line. F5 charges in and gloves the ball. During the bunt, the second baseman obstructs R1. The throw to first by the F5 is over the head of the F3 and goes up the first base line (not into the dugout). R1 seeing the overthrow continues and tries to score. F9, after coming up, fields the ball and throws home well before R1 arrives and R1 is tagged by F2 before scoring. What's the call on this? The obstruction is ignored? Is R1 entitled to 2nd base, and any attempt to advance beyond that is at his own peril?

Second case. Same setup. Instead, R1 stop at 3rd. However, the batter, seeing the overthrow, tries to run to 2nd. The throw by F9 is in time to tag the batter at 2nd. The batter is out and R1 is safe? The obstruction is ignored?

Third case. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, no outs. R2 has a big lead off of 2nd. The batter hits a slow ground ball toward F6. R2 pushes F6, interfering with the play. R1 scores on the play. The batter is safe at first. I presume R2 is out. Does R1 return to the 3rd? Is the batter still safe at first?

For each of these, what are the mechanics? How do you indicate the obstruction or interference? In the case of interference, is the runner out immediately? (Edit: I was just reading some other threads, and in some cases the ball it seems the ball is dead immediately. Is that the case in any of these situations?)

0) Usually, R1 denotes the runner at first, R2 the runner at second and R3 the runner at third. FED, in its case book, has R1 as the lead runner, no matter the base. That standard is routinely ignored here.

1) On the OBS, the umpire decides "how far" to protect the runner. If the runner is out by "a lot" at home, then the out stands. If the play is close, the the runner would be awarded home on the OBS.

2) Since the batter wasn't obstructed, whatever happens to hoim happens.

3) The ball is dead on the interference. R3 returns to third. The batter is awarded first (since the interference didn't interfere with a likely DP).

4) Point at the infraction and verbalize it. On OBS in FED, the ball is delayed dead. Keep it live until all action ends. On OBS in OBR, if a play is being made on the runner, then the ball is immediately dead and awards are made. If no play is being made on the runner, then the ball stays live until a play is made or action stops. Awards (if any) are then made.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

On OBS in OBR, if no play is being made on the runner, then the ball stays live until a play is made or action stops. Awards (if any) are then made.

I believe the ball stays live until the obstructed runner is tagged out (off base) or the action stops. For example, if the D made a play on the obstructed runner and threw the ball away, he would be entitled to the ensuing award. The ball would not be dead on the play.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

I believe the ball stays live until the obstructed runner is tagged out (off base) or the action stops. For example, if the D made a play on the obstructed runner and threw the ball away, he would be entitled to the ensuing award. The ball would not be dead on the play.

Agreed. I wasn't thinking of that possibility when I replied.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by Suudy

First, I'm not a baseball official.

It is always helpful to let us know what ruleset you are referring early on in your post. Simply The Best Of Luck to you, mate!

[Suudy]

First, thanks for all the responses! I't been very helpful.

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

It is always helpful to let us know what ruleset you are referring early on in your post. Simply The Best Of Luck to you, mate!

Good question. I don't know. I've been officiating NFHS for high school football. I live in WA, and I've been considering baseball. But I don't know what ruleset they use. I presume NFHS.

[dileonardoja]

Originally Posted by Suudy

I live in WA, and I've been considering baseball. But I don't know what ruleset they use. I presume NFHS.

WA uses NFHS (Fed)

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by Suudy

First, thanks for all the responses! I't been very helpful.



Good question. I don't know. I've been officiating NFHS for high school football. I live in WA, and I've been considering baseball. But I don't know what ruleset they use. I presume NFHS.

At some point you will need to associate yourself with one or more officials organizations. Find out who they are and they will be able to point you not only to the rulesets but to the modifications that are made by various baseball leagues inc WA HS Association.

If you call several age groups don't be surprised if you find OBR (heavily modified) and NFHS ("Fed" also modified). When I mean heavily modified I mean pages on pages of modifications by each age group.

It gets absurd. Really.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

At some point you will need to associate yourself with one or more officials organizations. Find out who they are and they will be able to point you not only to the rulesets but to the modifications that are made by various baseball leagues inc WA HS Association.

Sure. I haven't looked yet, and just have been kicking the idea around. It's been on my mind for a few years, but I think I want to understand things much better before really taking the plunge.

One of the most difficult things for me to absorb is the high degree of personal judgment and nearly God-like powers that umpires have. These complicated scenarios that are discussed seem to rely more heavily on the umpires judgment than in football. For example, in the obstruction scenario #1 I posted, the "umpire decides 'how far' to protect the runner." In football, the only judgment is whether a foul occurred, not how it should be applied. In baseball, it seems to be both. Also, the awarding of bases or returning runners to bases, seems to put a lot on the umpire.

And perhaps because of this, and my lack of knowledge, I'm reluctant to jump in. As I understand it, it is common for managers to argue calls. In football, we give an explanation. After the explanation, they can either go back to the bench, or be an arse and we flag them. But in baseball, it seems the response to a manager who just won't go away is ejection. And that seems drastic to me. And I'm not sure how I'd handle ejecting a manager. I've only done this once in my career to a head coach in football, and it was for shoving me. And I've flagged plenty of head coaches for being jerks.

Shrug. Perhaps my experience in football would help me manage such situations.

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

If you call several age groups don't be surprised if you find OBR (heavily modified) and NFHS ("Fed" also modified). When I mean heavily modified I mean pages on pages of modifications by each age group.

And this is the other complication. Things are pretty uniform in football. Fouls are fouls, at almost all levels. Holding is holding, pass interference is pass interference, etc. The only thing that might change is the conditions for the call (not at the point of attack, uncatchable ball, etc). But what I've read so far on here makes my head spin. The sheer number of differences, not just in what constitutes an infraction, but the conditions, enforcement and mechanics change as well. Phew.

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

It gets absurd. Really.

Indeed! I'm thinking of doing just one level of ball until I get my feet under me. Keeping track of the differences between the age groups would just be too much.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best
At some point you will need to associate yourself with one or more officials organizations. Find out who they are and they will be able to point you not only to the rulesets but to the modifications that are made by various baseball leagues inc WA HS Association.

Originally Posted by Suudy

Sure. I haven't looked yet, and just have been kicking the idea around. It's been on my mind for a few years, but I think I want to understand things much better before really taking the plunge.

One of the most difficult things for me to absorb is the high degree of personal judgment and nearly God-like powers that umpires have. These complicated scenarios that are discussed seem to rely more heavily on the umpires judgment than in football. For example, in the obstruction scenario #1 I posted, the "umpire decides 'how far' to protect the runner." In football, the only judgment is whether a foul occurred, not how it should be applied. In baseball, it seems to be both. Also, the awarding of bases or returning runners to bases, seems to put a lot on the umpire.

Yes, we carry a heavy burden.

And perhaps because of this, and my lack of knowledge, I'm reluctant to jump in. As I understand it, it is common for managers to argue calls.

Two points you need to consider. 1) Most managers haven't a clue to the rules, they don't have rulebooks (just ask one if he does), they have never read one (especially FED Rules), they absolutely do not teach their players the rules and they are as rare as hen's teeth on umpire forums. Any rule knowledge will put you far in advance of most of them (an exception might be HS coaches) 2) Game control is crucial and it isn't factually discussed on many umpire foprums imo. You hear a lot of "forum talk", umpires giving witty one liners, etc. but in truth most umpires are terrible at game control. That is, they don't control jack.

Game control need not be either a science or a misery. K.I.S.Suddy.

Here is what I teach and what many organizations have adopted (to some degree) regarding "discussing" (arguing is not allowed) plays (not ball-strikes) between umpires and coaches.

• Coach wants a discussion
• Meet him at sideline or out of play (never on field)
• If he comes onto the field, walk him off it
• Put your hands at your sides or behind your back (no possibility of you initiating contact)
• Keep more than an arms length in distance
• Don't use his name ("sir or coach")
• Listen to what he has to say
• Either site the rule and/or what you saw if a judgment call or both
• Listen to a response
• Inform him you have made a decision (agree to disagree)
• Thank him and end the discussion, return to your position.

If he continues, you can return and warn him ("Coach, we're through here"), return to position.
If he continues after that, eject.

Simple, precise, takes 2-3 minutes max, effective.

Note: It is up to you if you want to discuss with any coach other than the HC; balls and strikes are NOT discussable; warn a coach as soon as he starts on your strike zone either in private or so everyone can hear. Let him know you will eject if there is any more indiscretion on his part.

In football, we give an explanation. After the explanation, they can either go back to the bench, or be an arse and we flag them. But in baseball, it seems the response to a manager who just won't go away is ejection. And that seems drastic to me. And I'm not sure how I'd handle ejecting a manager. I've only done this once in my career to a head coach in football, and it was for shoving me. And I've flagged plenty of head coaches for being jerks.

If you are consistent as per my example above, the ejection is imminent. You are not ejecting anyone, the manager ejects himself. The point you have to consider is after the ejection, the manager either wants to stay on or continue to argue, you have to warn him that he is jeopardizing the continuance of the game. If he does continue, you have to be ready to end the game.

If you go into these game control situations with a firm set of reasonable guidelines, set in your head, follow them without fail, it becomes 1-2-3. If you don't, and as many umps want to do, make up your guidelines on the fly, you're screwed. Believe me, you are screwed, you will find yourself in the middle of nastiness and have nothing to fall back on to solve the problems you have caused yourself.

Shrug. Perhaps my experience in football would help me manage such situations.

It will, take the same bent as in football, 1-2-3.

And this is the other complication. Things are pretty uniform in football. Fouls are fouls, at almost all levels. Holding is holding, pass interference is pass interference, etc. The only thing that might change is the conditions for the call (not at the point of attack, uncatchable ball, etc). But what I've read so far on here makes my head spin. The sheer number of differences, not just in what constitutes an infraction, but the conditions, enforcement and mechanics change as well. Phew.

Football is a piece of cake. Baseball never will be, no offense intended, it is the most difficult sport to officiate because of the rules. Then you have the plays where no rules exist. But that's the fun and the challenge of it.

Indeed! I'm thinking of doing just one level of ball until I get my feet under me. Keeping track of the differences between the age groups would just be too much.

Good idea. Most of us didn't have the choice, if you do, take one age group and stay there for awhile. I started in the '60s and called FP and SP softball, baseball 6-Adult usually all on the same day. No rule books, couldn't find one, umpires almost always were players past so we brought a player's knowledge to the game. The adults played at night and were usually drunk.

Take the plunge if for no other reason than you truly do not know the game of baseball in its entirety until you have put on the blue.

[Suudy]

Thanks for the reply. I've been mulling over your answers and have a couple of clarifying questions.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

1) On the OBS, the umpire decides "how far" to protect the runner. If the runner is out by "a lot" at home, then the out stands. If the play is close, the the runner would be awarded home on the OBS.

I see. So the runner is awarded whatever base he can reasonably be determined to have achieved had the obstruction not occurred. Thus a close play at any base on an obstructed runner, the runner is awarded the base.

I guess the confusion on my part is the mistake by F5. Had the overthrow not occurred, R1 likely wouldn't have advanced beyond second. Yet it seems that the obstruction does not negate any continuing action. I can't quite word it correctly, but it seems that all action is considered independent of the obstruction.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

3) The ball is dead on the interference. R3 returns to third. The batter is awarded first (since the interference didn't interfere with a likely DP).

And R2 is out, right?

And the 'test' thread got me thinking of another interference situation. This has probably been discussed before, and is perhaps common, but I wonder about the nature of the dead ball.

Two outs. Batter hits a ground ball to left field. R3 scores easily. R2 continues past third and is on his way home. F7 throws home, and R3 seeing the potential close play at home, interferes with F2. R2 scores.

Now, as discussed before, the ball is dead upon the interference. So, R2 returns to 3rd, right? But since R3 already scored, he can't be called out (already a retired runner). How is this dealt with?

Also, consider same but at the bottom of the 9th, the home team trailing by 1 run. Does this change how you would rule (R3 interfered to unfairly help his team win the game)?

[Suudy]

One other question that just jumped into my mind.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

4) Point at the infraction and verbalize it. On OBS in FED, the ball is delayed dead. Keep it live until all action ends. On OBS in OBR, if a play is being made on the runner, then the ball is immediately dead and awards are made. If no play is being made on the runner, then the ball stays live until a play is made or action stops. Awards (if any) are then made.

The mechanic on obstruction is a bit confusing, especially with an awarded base. Say for example there is a close play on an obstructed runner, but you clearly have them out. What are the mechanics on this? Do you signal safe? Or do you signal out, then award the base based upon the previous obstruction?

As an example, let's say we have this scenario. R1 has a big lead at first. F1 senses the impending attempt to steal, and (legally) throws to F2. R1, realizing he won't make it, advances toward second. R1 is then caught in a rundown. During his movement back-and-forth between first and second, F2 obstructs with R1. R1 then a) is tagged, b) makes it safely to second, c) makes it safely back to first. At the obstruction, you verbalize ("Obstruction!"), and play continues. Finally, play ends. In the case of a tag, do you then signal out, then award a base? Which base?

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

Any rule knowledge will put you far in advance of most of them (an exception might be HS coaches)

Ah, they taught us the same in football. When I was a youngin', I got the bright I idea of telling a coach that when he could find in the rulebook where I wrong, I would listen to him. He pulled his rulebook out of his back pocket and gave it to me and told me to start reading it myself. My white hat was none too happy with me after that one.

The point I'm trying to make is that rule knowledge is important, but I've personally found it only useful insofar as you are able to demonstrate that you have it, your ability to explain, and your manner with the coach. I've worked with guys that knew the book backwards and forwards, could address every case book situation with a rule reference from memory, but didn't have the field presence to do anything other than annoy the coach (and his fellow officials).

However, I do agree that a lack of knowledge is far more troublesome than a bad field presence or poor game control skills.

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

You hear a lot of "forum talk", umpires giving witty one liners, etc. but in truth most umpires are terrible at game control. That is, they don't control jack.

Not terribly different in football.

The home coaches know most of us, and they are easy to work with. You can tell the good officials by how they work with the visiting coaches. Probably the same in baseball (at least with HS, JrHigh, etc).

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

If you are consistent as per my example above, the ejection is imminent. You are not ejecting anyone, the manager ejects himself. The point you have to consider is after the ejection, the manager either wants to stay on or continue to argue, you have to warn him that he is jeopardizing the continuance of the game. If he does continue, you have to be ready to end the game.

My point only is that it seems the penalty for being a jerk in baseball is far greater than in football. Nailing a head coach for 15 yards usually wakes him up (or at least his assistants). But in baseball, you don't have that kind of option. You can't tell the manager "Keep it up, and I'll call your batter out." or "We are done. Keep arguing and I'll award bases." The only penalty is ejection, and that seems (at least from a football perspective) extreme.

For example, ejection in the football world (at least here in WA) results in lots of paperwork, and the ejection stands the rest of the game and the next game too. Is that true with baseball?

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

Take the plunge if for no other reason than you truly do not know the game of baseball in its entirety until you have put on the blue.

One of the things that piqued my interest was the "Rule Corner" in my Baseball Digest. I've been a huge fan of baseball my entire life, but never played. The nuances in baseball (timing plays seem the most complex) is what is so fascinating--and daunting.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Suudy

Thanks for the reply. I've been mulling over your answers and have a couple of clarifying questions.


I see. So the runner is awarded whatever base he can reasonably be determined to have achieved had the obstruction not occurred. Thus a close play at any base on an obstructed runner, the runner is awarded the base.

Generally true.

I guess the confusion on my part is the mistake by F5. Had the overthrow not occurred, R1 likely wouldn't have advanced beyond second. Yet it seems that the obstruction does not negate any continuing action. I can't quite word it correctly, but it seems that all action is considered independent of the obstruction.

The specifics depend on the rules code, but if the obstruction is a "delayed dead ball" then we wait until all play is over (FED), or a play is made on the obstructed runner (OBR) before making any awards needed.

Two outs. Batter hits a ground ball to left field. R3 scores easily. R2 continues past third and is on his way home. F7 throws home, and R3 seeing the potential close play at home, interferes with F2. R2 scores.

Now, as discussed before, the ball is dead upon the interference. So, R2 returns to 3rd, right? But since R3 already scored, he can't be called out (already a retired runner). How is this dealt with?

R2 is out.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Suudy

The point I'm trying to make is that rule knowledge is important, but I've personally found it only useful insofar as you are able to demonstrate that you have it, your ability to explain, and your manner with the coach. I've worked with guys that knew the book backwards and forwards, could address every case book situation with a rule reference from memory, but didn't have the field presence to do anything other than annoy the coach (and his fellow officials).

You being a football official will be a great help when learning the rules of baseball. Football has an incredibly complex set of rules for penalty enforcement, etc. I think you will find baseball to be easier, different at first, but easier.

My point only is that it seems the penalty for being a jerk in baseball is far greater than in football. Nailing a head coach for 15 yards usually wakes him up (or at least his assistants). But in baseball, you don't have that kind of option. You can't tell the manager "Keep it up, and I'll call your batter out." or "We are done. Keep arguing and I'll award bases." The only penalty is ejection, and that seems (at least from a football perspective) extreme.

It is extreme coming from a football perspective but realize in the baseball realm that ejections are a lot more common and accepted. Plus, in Federation rules you do have the option to first restrict a coach to the dugout instead of going straight to an ejection. In general, I've found that as football officials, we're expected to tolerate a lot more garbage from coaches than we do as baseball umpires.

The nuances in baseball (timing plays seem the most complex) is what is so fascinating--and daunting.

Every sport has their banger calls. Football has catch/no catch and DPI, a close play at first is no different from the skill sets and fundamentals required. Get set, look / listen for specific criteria, see the whole play and make your call.

I think you will really enjoy yourself working baseball.