NFHS Question need ruling

[zebra5150]

Ok guys here is the situation.......

3rd and 6 on team A’s 20 yd. line. The ball is snapped and A1 throws a legal forward pass caught by A2, who advances to the B 36 yd. line. After the play, the officials realize that B had 12 men on the field. The 12th man is B12 who (a) was on the field at the snap, but realized it shortly after and left the field at his team box, never participating in the play, or (b) remained on the field during the play, although he just stood there, or (c) entered the field after the snap because he thought his team only had 10 players on the field. What is the foul and enforcement?

NFHS ruling guys... thanks

[Patton]

1st off, it's the officials job to count the teams and hopefully blow the play dead before it starts in this cicumstance and penalize the defense for a dead ball 5-yard illegal substitution foul instead of the 15-yard illegal partipation. However, that not what you described.

In a) if he is attempting to leave the field then I have a live ball illegal substitution foul. 5 yards from previous spot. A will most like decline and take the result of the play.

In b) if he's not attempting to leave the field, that's a live ball illegal participation foul. 15 yard from previous spot. A will most like decline and take the result of the play.

In c) this is the change this year in which many pages exist on this forum dealing primarly whith the enforcement spot. It is live ball illegal participation foul enforced from the basic spot. Since this foul is on the defense it would be enforced from the end of the run. I think that's right??

[cowbyfan1]

Originally posted by Patton
1st off, it's the officials job to count the teams and hopefully blow the play dead before it starts in this cicumstance and penalize the defense for a dead ball 5-yard illegal substitution foul instead of the 15-yard illegal partipation. However, that not what you described.

In a) if he is attempting to leave the field then I have a live ball illegal substitution foul. 5 yards from previous spot. A will most like decline and take the result of the play.

In b) if he's not attempting to leave the field, that's a live ball illegal participation foul. 15 yard from previous spot. A will most like decline and take the result of the play.

In c) this is the change this year in which many pages exist on this forum dealing primarly whith the enforcement spot. It is live ball illegal participation foul enforced from the basic spot. Since this foul is on the defense it would be enforced from the end of the run. I think that's right??

Right you are in all 3 situations.

[mikesears]

3rd and 6 on team A’s 20 yd. line. The ball is snapped and A1 throws a legal forward pass caught by A2, who advances to the B 36 yd. line. After the play, the officials realize that B had 12 men on the field.[/b]

Once in a while, there are situations where officials have difficulty completing the count because of late substitutions, etc. Otherwise. I agree with the others. Game officials should catch this before the play.

The 12th man is B12 who (a) was on the field at the snap, but realized it shortly after and left the field at his team box, never participating in the play

In this case, we have illegal participation because he didn't try to leave until after the snap.

Part of Casebook play 3.7.1b comment reads, " However, if the official’s count is not completed before the snap is imminent or if the substitution has not been monitored, it becomes illegal participation at the snap if more than 11 are in the formation. Each team is responsible for substituting legally and for replaced players to leave immediately as required."

Give A the choice of 1) 15 yards from the previous spot or 2) the results of the play.



However, if he tries to leave before the snap, we have illegal substitution (a non-player foul). All non-player fouls are enforced from the succeeding spot.

(b) remained on the field during the play, although he just stood there

Same thing. Illegal participation. Live ball foul at the snap. Give A same choices as above.

(c) entered the field after the snap because he thought his team only had 10 players on the field. What is the foul and enforcement?

This year, this is illegal participation. 15 yards from the basic spot or the results of the play.

[Patton]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears

This year, this is illegal participation. 15 yards from the basic spot or the results of the play.

In this particular play, what are you saying is the basic spot. Was I correct in saying it is the end of the run? If so, doesn't it make this a "tack on" foul. Maybe I'm just not understanding the enforcement of this penalty. Thanks!

[mikesears]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Patton

Originally posted by mikesears

In this particular play, what are you saying is the basic spot. Was I correct in saying it is the end of the run? If so, doesn't it make this a "tack on" foul. Maybe I'm just not understanding the enforcement of this penalty. Thanks!

I asked that same question at our rules meeting and didn't get a good answer from the head interpretter from our state. I find it curious that the verbiage for enforcment states, basic spot enforcment. However, I have heard that term used to simply mean that we use all but one. At this point, from where we actually enforce this continues to be a mystery to me.