Little League. Cat & Mouse

[Bandit]

History and background is in softball. Have son starting 9 and 10 year old age group baseball this year. Have expierenced the cat & mouse game of runners at first base this past week-end to try and draw a throw. Softball has the look-back/circle rule to prevent this bs. What is the Little League rule on this. Where in the rule book is the direct ruling on what the responspbility of the runner/base commitment vs ball to pitcher? Want to teach the son the proper ruling and action. He will have considerable time as catcher this summer. Thanks

[nopachunts]

Look in 7.13

[Bandit]

So.....if the pitcher receives the ball in the mound area, the runner can pretty much do anything they want but upon the pitcher having the ball ON THE RUBBER the runner must stop the bs and be on the base. True ? False?

I like the leaving base early penelty. If the runner is thrown out. So be it. If they are not thrown out they simply go back and start all over as if nothing happened. If they leave the base early and the batter reaches safely they can only the equal of the batter. Hummmmmmm. dosn't it look like their is no penelty for leaving early?

[Birddog]

7.13 In order to “freeze” runners or prevent lead-offs the battery must be set. This means the pitcher on the rubber with the ball and the catcher in his box ready to receive the pitch. Ready to receive means mask is on and he is in a down or squat position or standing behind the plate. When the pitcher and catcher are set according to rule there shall be no lead-offs and runners must return to base unless already in the process of advancing. The pitcher on the rubber with the ball alone does nothing to stop runners or lead-offs.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by Bandit

I like the leaving base early penelty. If the runner is thrown out. So be it. If they are not thrown out they simply go back and start all over as if nothing happened. If they leave the base early and the batter reaches safely they can only the equal of the batter. Hummmmmmm. dosn't it look like their is no penelty for leaving early?

There isn't much of a penalty, but note that you are missing one additional point--on an infield hit or bunt, no runner can score if any runner left early (this is the infamous case where a runner can reach home safely and yet not score a run).

You need to look at the intent of this rule. It is not to add softball rules into kiddie baseball. Instead, it is to help balance out the disparity between kids' abilities to get outs vs kids' abilities to run, and it does so always with an eye to the 'full' rules that get introduced in stages as the kids get older (i.e. as their abilities throwing the ball and making plays catches up).

[ManInBlue]

Teach the pitcher to throw to 1st. Teach the catcher to throw to 1st. One good step and throw will prevent this the rest of the game.

I see this same crap (usually at 3rd) in Dixie Youth - I can't stand it. If coaches would teach the kids the fundamentals of throwing a baseball you'd either catch someone off the base or catch them 10 steps before they get to the next base.

I don't quite get it - throw the baseball - How to play the game, step 1. I seem to remember a rather famous coach say one time "you hit the ball, you catch the ball, you throw the ball" - but then those players lolly-gagged around too

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

Teach the pitcher to throw to 1st. Teach the catcher to throw to 1st. One good step and throw will prevent this the rest of the game.

I see this same crap (usually at 3rd) in Dixie Youth - I can't stand it. If coaches would teach the kids the fundamentals of throwing a baseball you'd either catch someone off the base or catch them 10 steps before they get to the next base.

I don't quite get it - throw the baseball - How to play the game, step 1. I seem to remember a rather famous coach say one time "you hit the ball, you catch the ball, you throw the ball" - but then those players lolly-gagged around too

They can't throw consistently well at that age. It's a fact of life. You can't fix it through wishful thinking or practice. Their motor skills aren't well enough developed. It's the same reason they can't play the piano as well as an adult. Their bodies won't follow instructions well enough. Don't throw prodigies at me - they're the rare case, not the norm. Kids aren't miniature adults. They cannot perform as an adult. Ask your pediatrician. And that's why coaches teach the "I dare you" tactic.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

They can't throw consistently well at that age. It's a fact of life. You can't fix it through wishful thinking or practice. Their motor skills aren't well enough developed. It's the same reason they can't play the piano as well as an adult. Their bodies won't follow instructions well enough. Don't throw prodigies at me - they're the rare case, not the norm. Kids aren't miniature adults. They cannot perform as an adult. Ask your pediatrician. And that's why coaches teach the "I dare you" tactic.

I wouldn't dare throw prodigies at you. I don't have to. I've seen 8 year olds at the Dizzy Dean World Series, 100's of them, teams full of them playing other teams full of them - that can throw the ball, catch the ball and hit the ball. I see 8 year olds in USSSA every weekend that can hit/catch/throw - and these are still COACH PITCH!!!

Now, 9 and 10 yo's - them boys can play some ball too - and in U-trip they even have enough muscle control to learn not to balk. No these aren't teams with one kid that's super talented...these are 10 or 12 kids that all can do it.

You can take that "lack of motor skill" bologna somewhere else - I've seen too many that have it - it's lack of teaching them to use it. Period. Yes, they have a higher likely-hood to err because, well, they're 9 - but if they are tought how to do it, they CAN do it.

Piano? Really? Comparing "step and throw" to having your left hand doing something completely different than your right hand, reading sheet music and remembering what keys are where - VERY slight difference there, Rich

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Birddog

7.13 In order to “freeze” runners or prevent lead-offs the battery must be set. This means the pitcher on the rubber with the ball and the catcher in his box ready to receive the pitch. Ready to receive means mask is on and he is in a down or squat position or standing behind the plate. When the pitcher and catcher are set according to rule there shall be no lead-offs and runners must return to base unless already in the process of advancing. The pitcher on the rubber with the ball alone does nothing to stop runners or lead-offs.

The catcher, as you mentioned, merely needs to be in the catcher's box with the mask on. That's a pretty big box since on the small diamond they just extend the foul lines.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

I wouldn't dare throw prodigies at you. I don't have to. I've seen 8 year olds at the Dizzy Dean World Series, 100's of them, teams full of them playing other teams full of them - that can throw the ball, catch the ball and hit the ball. I see 8 year olds in USSSA every weekend that can hit/catch/throw - and these are still COACH PITCH!!!

Now, 9 and 10 yo's - them boys can play some ball too - and in U-trip they even have enough muscle control to learn not to balk. No these aren't teams with one kid that's super talented...these are 10 or 12 kids that all can do it.

You can take that "lack of motor skill" bologna somewhere else - I've seen too many that have it - it's lack of teaching them to use it. Period. Yes, they have a higher likely-hood to err because, well, they're 9 - but if they are tought how to do it, they CAN do it.

Piano? Really? Comparing "step and throw" to having your left hand doing something completely different than your right hand, reading sheet music and remembering what keys are where - VERY slight difference there, Rich

You're talking travel ball and all-stars, not the everyday normal player.

I've been doing rec ball since 1974. I have clues. I stand by my earlier statements.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

You're talking travel ball and all-stars, not the everyday normal player.

I've been doing rec ball since 1974. I have clues. I stand by my earlier statements.

The only differences in travel ball and "normal" players are that travel ball plays more games and the coaches actually understand how to teach baseball fundamentals. They use repetition to instill those fundamentals. Any "normal" kid can do what they do on travel ball teams - they just need teaching.

OH!! I see plenty of 9 year olds that couldn't find their glove if you labeled it, gave it to them and told them what it was. But even those kids can learn with proper teaching.

My point is a coach can teach them to throw and stop this BS song and dance - you only need 3 players that can throw and you've got it solved.

[ozzy6900]

I tend to agree with Rich here. The weakest link in this equation is F3. In this area, it's the fat kids who play 1st base. Most of the time, they can't get out of their own way, never mind chase a ball down. An overthrow even on a fenced in field will normally result the runner on 1st making it to at least 3rd before F3 even moves toward the ball. No, I am not being nasty or mean, this is how youth ball works around here.

My son was an exception to this. Tall and thin, when he wasn't pitching, he was the team's F3. Able to catch just about anything thrown at him, stretching into a full split while holding the bag ( ouch) and with a certain F4, turning a sweet reverse DP. Okay, I worked with him daily and he was a great player when he was young, but the norm around here is not this scenario.... it's Fat Albert loving to play baseball.

[PaREF]

The only differences in travel ball and "normal" players are that travel ball plays more games and the coaches actually understand how to teach baseball fundamentals.

I've coached volleyball for 20 years now and learning to perform a motor skill like throwing a ball is a matter of using correct mechanics and repetition. So, yes, you are correct but you're not 100% correct.

My experience shows me that there is no way 9 and 10 year old kids can effectively learn to perform a task like accurately throwing a ball (or hitting a ball) by doing it ONLY in organized practice, no matter how skilled the coach is in teaching. There just isn't enough time to get all of the repetitions they need to become proficient (unless you ignore all of the other aspects of the game and only perform one skill for hours at a time, day after day).

I have found that young kids whose skill levels are higher than average have put in a lot of extra time practicing their technique either with parents, friends, or by themselves. Coaching is important but desire and perseverance are greater. One of my favorite quotes is “the only place where success comes before work is in the dictionary.”

[pastordoug]

While trying to "teach" players the fundamentals is a great goal, however in many of these leagues little Tommy along with about 7 others are out there because of Dad.... When I coached the only thing we hoped for when drafting is to get AT LEAST 3-4 kids who could catch, hit, and throw! Let's not forget that these are Kids and we should let them be kids... IMO more important than learning fundamentals 9 (while certainly important) is the concept of teamwork and good sportsmanship....