How to handle fake steal cat/mouse dance

[Danny R]

I just umped my 3rd LL game (8 yr-olds). Stealing is allowed. During the game, there were a number of times that a ruuner was on 3rd and after the pitch, while the catcher still had the ball, the runner would take several steps off the bag toward home, trying to make the catcher nervous about blowing the throw to the pitcher. This caused the catcher to stand there holding the ball waiting for the runner to get back on 3rd. Of course, the runner wouldn't go back and so we had these silly cat and mouse games going on. It's a big waste of time in my opinion. How do other umps handle this? If I see that the runner isn't running can I call time so that we can get the game going?

-danny

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Danny R
I just umped my 3rd LL game (8 yr-olds). Stealing is allowed. During the game, there were a number of times that a ruuner was on 3rd and after the pitch, while the catcher still had the ball, the runner would take several steps off the bag toward home, trying to make the catcher nervous about blowing the throw to the pitcher. This caused the catcher to stand there holding the ball waiting for the runner to get back on 3rd. Of course, the runner wouldn't go back and so we had these silly cat and mouse games going on. It's a big waste of time in my opinion. How do other umps handle this? If I see that the runner isn't running can I call time so that we can get the game going?

-danny

Nope. And I wouldn't recommend calling time-out either. The ball is live and there is really nothing you can do about it but just live with it, knowing that as the players get older they will stop the cat and mouse games.

[brandda]

Nothing you can do here.

I am surprised that the coach was not telling the catcher just to throw it back to the pitcher. The guy won't come home if the pitcher is looking right at him.

Also, the catcher will try to make that throw to third a couple of times, blow it and that will be the end of it.

[jicecone]

This was my reply to an earlier thread concerning the same subject. suggestion to the coach mwy be appropriate.

Try having the pitcher come off the mound towards the plate and retrieving the ball from the catcher at a shorter distance. Then, as the pitcher proceeds to the mound, play, fake or check the runner. Once the pitcher is on the mound the runner has to either go back to the base or go home.

Im not saying it is a perfect solution but I have seen it work many many times.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Danny R

I just umped my 3rd LL game (8 yr-olds). Stealing is allowed. During the game, there were a number of times that a ruuner was on 3rd and after the pitch, while the catcher still had the ball, the runner would take several steps off the bag toward home, trying to make the catcher nervous about blowing the throw to the pitcher. This caused the catcher to stand there holding the ball waiting for the runner to get back on 3rd. Of course, the runner wouldn't go back and so we had these silly cat and mouse games going on. It's a big waste of time in my opinion. How do other umps handle this? If I see that the runner isn't running can I call time so that we can get the game going?

First off allowing stealing in an 8 yr. old division IMO is a joke - Get ready for track meets.

I disagree with the concenses here. Whenever r3 starts to play that cat and mouse game call TIME and get the game moving again, especially in an 8 yr. old division.

If you do not call time, the game will drag on. Give the offense their shot at scoring, but once F1 has the ball and F2 is ready to receive and R3 starts the shenanigans, call TIME and put an end to the non-sense.

As the kids get older, they will learn how to defend against this.

Pete Booth

[bluezebra]

I agree with Pete. Unless of course, you're paid by the hour, and/or you're a masochist. When ever this happened, I called time after a few seconds when it was obvious the runner wasn't going, and F1 or F2n't going to make a throw.

"TIME! Runner(s) back on your base(s). Pitcher get ready to pitch. Catcher get in position. Batter get in the box. We're here to play ball. If you want to dance, join a ballet class. PLAY BALL!"

Bob

[brandda]

I just took this at face value, but I did wonder about the 8 year olds being allowed to steal which seems a little bizarre. This is expressly forbidden by LL rules. Why did your league allow it?

[Danny R]

I've read through the 2002 LL rulebook a couple of times so far and I don't recall anything about stealing being forbidden. I do recall the rulebook saying a runner cannot leave base until the ball reaches the batter. I agree that if it were up to me to make the rules, there would be no steals in this league. With 8-yr-olds, there are a lot of walks already. That, combined with allowing steals and a 5-run limit per inning (local rule) means there isn't a whole lot of action for fielders. But I don't make the rules; kids in the league I'm umping (my son's league) can run for another base as soon as the ball reaches the batter, and they do it all the time as you can imagine.

Anyway, the way for the kids to deal with this (IMO) is for the catcher to take a step or 2 in front of home plate and towards third, for the pitcher to take 1 or 2 steps in from the rubber, and for them to make an easy toss. One poor kid, though, had his mother in the stands screaming instructions to him while he was playing catcher. This had him so shaken the boy was making bad throws. In fact, several times the boy would turn around to listen to his mother and the runners would all start running to the next base. The mother would then yell for him to throw the ball to whichever base. The poor kid was so confused he didn't know what to do. After awhile one of the coaches asked her not to coach him from the stands, as he couldn't hear his own coaches over her. I wanted to tell her to knock it off, but didn't think I had the authority. I did tell them I thought their shouted instructions were confusing the player. The the mother kept it up.

Thanks for all the advice. This forum is a great resource.

[brandda]

OH. When you said steal, I thought you weer using the term in its more common (big league) sense. If you are following little league rules about ball crossing the plate, then I am doubly surprised you have this problem. Most coaches will tell the catcher to get the ball back to the pitcher ASAP because once he is back on the rubber the runner has to return to third. Just lean down and tell the catcher "you know son, if your pitcher has the ball, that runner's not going anywhere". He'll figure it out.

Parents - Can't live with em, can't shoot 'em. As long as she is not using profanity or saying/doing anything abusive or unsportsmanlike you're kind of stuck with her. Shame you can't toss someone for being annoying.

I have run into this once before in this age group at which time I just leaned down to the catcher, patted him on the shoulder and said, "don't worry son, you're doing fine". Kids with parents like that don't get adult approval very much and giving them a little tends to calm them down. The only other suggestion would be to suggest to the coach that they let the kid play center field where her voice might not carry.

[GarthB]

I assign and supervise the the local PONY umpires. At the Mustang level we have a similar problem I refer to as the "Catcher/R3 Cha-Cha."

I timed a game last week and found that this manuevering added nearly three minutes per inning, almost 18 minutes to the game.

Unfortunately it is primarily a coaching problem and not a rule enforcement issue. The board has drafted a letter to the coaches asking them to address the issue with their catchers. Although instigated by R3, it is usually the catcher that prolongs the dance. A simple fake to third followed IMMEDIATELY by a throw back to the pitcher would take care of it.

Most coaches will tell the catcher to get the ball back to the pitcher ASAP because once he is back on the rubber the runner has to return to third. Just lean down and tell the catcher "you know son, if your pitcher has the ball, that runner's not going anywhere". He'll figure it out.


This isn't exactly correct. Getting the ball back to the pitcher only makes him decide what to do. If they get the ball back to mound and he decides to take off that's legal. They can just ignor him, pitch and let him be called for a 7.13 violation. But it doesn't make him return at all.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Danny R


Anyway, the way for the kids to deal with this (IMO) is for the catcher to take a step or 2 in front of home plate and towards third, for the pitcher to take 1 or 2 steps in from the rubber, and for them to make an easy toss.

Remember, these kids are only 8 yrs. old. My son is in the minors (age 10), and in these divisions, F2 has all he /she can do to get the ball back to F1 properly without throwing the ball away. Even in our minor division, we do not allow stealing. The games are long enough without adding insult to injury.

Each age level will bring new skills. Age 8 IMO, is still in the development stages, and when you allow stealing it's a joke. Players at this age should start learning how to catch a ball properly and how to hit. All the other stuff will come later.

Rome wasn't built in one day.

Pete Booth

[brandda]

Originally posted by Michael Taylor
Most coaches will tell the catcher to get the ball back to the pitcher ASAP because once he is back on the rubber the runner has to return to third. Just lean down and tell the catcher "you know son, if your pitcher has the ball, that runner's not going anywhere". He'll figure it out.


This isn't exactly correct. Getting the ball back to the pitcher only makes him decide what to do. If they get the ball back to mound and he decides to take off that's legal. They can just ignor him, pitch and let him be called for a 7.13 violation. But it doesn't make him return at all.

If he gets called for a 7.13 then he gets sent back. That qualifies as making him return to me.

[spillguy]

If he gets called for a 7.13 then he gets sent back. That qualifies as making him return to me.


Plus any hit fails to score a run even with bases loaded since R3 left early. I like it!

[phillycheese]

Only if it was an infield hit.