What's the call ?

[Ump29]

OBR. 0 out. R2. The batter hits a looping drive to short right field. R2 holds up and remains at 2nd as the ball drops safely. The BR rounds 1st and collides with F3. BR continues to run and reaches 2nd safely. Both runners are now standing at 2nd . The defensive player tags both runners. What should the umpire's call be?

[JJ]

"TIME! R2, you go to 3B, and BR, you stay on 2B."

Next question?

JJ

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by JJ

"TIME! R2, you go to 3B, and BR, you stay on 2B."

Next question?

JJ

I disagree.

[johnnyg08]

I'll try:

I've got OBS (type b), protecting R1 to 2B, however, this is type 2 OBS with 2B still occupied by R2, so I'm also going to call B/R out on the play.

[JJ]

Yep, it's type 2 obstruction, but I'm protecting that BR into 2B, and my award for him will force R2 to advance to 3B. Since the BR was still running after he collided with F3 as opposed to stopping at 1B, while I wouldn't AUTOMATICALLY award him 2B I will in this case. He must have thought he could make it to 2B so he kept running. I'm giving HIM the benefit of the doubt while at the same time letting F3 know to stay out of the runner's path.

Of course, this is definitely a HTBT situation, but based on the OP this is what I would do. If another umpire chooses to do something different, that's his call.

JJ

14 days till first pitch.

[umpjong]

Technically I'm with JJ on this but from a different path.
The play would continue and BR would probably be called out to end play. Then umpire that has the obstruction would step in and award BR 2nd because of the obstruction, and R2 third because he is forced to third because of the award to BR.

[Umpmazza]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I'll try:

I've got OBS (type b), protecting R1 to 2B, however, this is type 2 OBS with 2B still occupied by R2, so I'm also going to call B/R out on the play.

well.. "time, I have OBS, you pointing to the BR, 2nd base, then to 2nd you 3rd base" cant have to guys on the same base..since you awarded him 2nd, it forces R2 to 3rd..

also just cause there is OBS dont mean the BR will get 2nd..it is judgment as to what base he would have obtained.

[johnnyg08]

Yeah, I've thought it through and read what others have said as well...I would've got it right on the field...but probably screwed up how I would've explained it to the coach.

R2 isn't getting a free base though. No matter what anybody says.

[ODJ]

O.P. -

BR was obstructed AFTER obtaining 1st base. The minimum penalty is BR placed one base beyond, putting him at 2nd. R2 goes to 3rd.

Punish the offender - the defense. By calling BR out, where's the penalty?

On a philosophical note: Dave Yeast, former NCAA Coordinator, told an NCAA meeting in '04 to not have an "opinion" of how far you will protect the obstructed runner. Let the play give you the information and base your judgement on the results of the play. His contention was/is that umpires have snap opinions as to how far the runner should advance before the play ends.

Example:
The fastest batter-runner in the state hits a shot to right field, is obstructed after touching first, and is tagged out at 3rd by a whisker. Call?

Majority of umpires respond with: "Out. He shouldn't have gone past 2nd."

What if, on this play the fastest batter-runner is safe at 3rd. Would you call time, and say to the coach - "Coach, your runner is safe at third, but in my opinion he shouldn't have gone past second, so I'm going to put him back at 2nd base." I would hope no one ever says such a thing.

In the former example, the umpire created an opinion and determined what the result of the "should" be without waiting for the result of the play.

Example:
If the slowest batter in the state hits the same shot to right field, is again obstructed after 1st base, and is tagged out halfway between 2nd and 3rd.
Call?
I have an out. The obstruction (an ordinary bump) did not cause such a hinderance as to be out by 40 feet.

Point is to let the play happen, and then render a decision. We're told, for timing's sake, to wait and take our time, but with instances of obstruction, we are far to quick to judge.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ODJ

O.P. -

BR was obstructed AFTER obtaining 1st base. The minimum penalty is BR placed one base beyond, putting him at 2nd. R2 goes to 3rd.

Nope. OBR, type B obstruction. No minimum award.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by ODJ

What if, on this play the fastest batter-runner is safe at 3rd. Would you call time, and say to the coach - "Coach, your runner is safe at third, but in my opinion he shouldn't have gone past second, so I'm going to put him back at 2nd base." I would hope no one ever says such a thing.

I hope not, either. Runners are allowed to advance past the awarded base, but they're in jeopardy of being out if they do.

[rcaverly]

Originally Posted by ODJ

O.P. -BR was obstructed AFTER obtaining 1st base. The minimum penalty is BR placed one base beyond, putting him at 2nd. R2 goes to 3rd.

As stated elsewhere, the play on the BR was after he touched the base to which the umpire protected him. Nothing else is required by the umpire to nullify the obstruction.

Originally Posted by ODJ

O.P. -Punish the offender - the defense. By calling BR out, where's the penalty?

The first offender was the D when they obstructed the runner. The umpire saw it, called it and protected the runner to the base he would have acquired had there been no offending obstruction.

The next offender was the O when they tried to put two runners on the same base to which only one was entitled. The umpire saw it, called it and retired the trailing runner, the one not entitled to the base.

Originally Posted by ODJ

On a philosophical note: Dave Yeast, former NCAA Coordinator, told an NCAA meeting in '04 to not have an "opinion" of how far you will protect the obstructed runner. Let the play give you the information and base your judgement on the results of the play. His contention was/is that umpires have snap opinions as to how far the runner should advance before the play ends.

It must have been one Hell of a meeting back in '04 with Dave waxing philosophic. But, perhaps the point of his philosophy was that other things can happen after the obstruction, but before the end of continuous action, that may change the base/s to which the umpire may make awards or call outs. Others have referred to it as "post-obstruction evidence," I wasn't there at that particular meeting, but I don't think that philosophy is relevant to the OP.