LL Doesn't Care

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Have em all move to N VA - we're not back in school yet!

Thank you, Kings Dominion!

(Maybe Busch Gardens, too, but KD gets the "credit" when the law is cited.)

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

And you got your MD degree and orthopedic certitfication where?

The reports and studies from the medical community are not fully completed but the preliminary findings are that it's overuse and fatigue that are the problem. Seek them out yourself.

In the meantime, who invented the batting helmet? Who requires breakaway bases? Who was first to require ear coverage on catcher's helmets? Who banned head first slides while advancing? Who requires fencing in front of dugouts? Who requires background checks? Who prohibits on deck batters, including swinging the bat before going to the plate? Who has lighting standards for lighted fields?

Sorry Dr. Ives, how ignorant of me to have an opinion on this matter sans an MD degree / orthopedic certification.

1) Find me a study that indisputable proves that throwing curveballs prior to age 14 does no damage to an arm. I'll help you with this.....there isn't one. But that's ok, we'll risk blowing a ligament on Bert Blyleven Jr.'s 12 year old arm because having him throw all those sweepers to the other 12 year olds will certainly lock up that scholly to LSU in 5 years, or for that matter, insure that high draft pick and weekly visits from Scott Boras.

My opinion is my own, backed up by personal experience and shared by Dr. James Andrews. (I think he meets your criteria listed above)

2) The batting helmet was invented and first used in 1905. Not sure what that has to do with Little League.

3) The other items you refer to are not exclusive to Little League. As a side note to that, I find it odd that after 85 pitches, they will allow for the pitcher to go to 3rd, SS, or the OF....... yet they had to create a "special pinch runner" so they can participate more than the "minumum".

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by asdf

Sorry Dr. Ives, how ignorant of me to have an opinion on this matter sans an MD degree / orthopedic certification.

1) Find me a study that indisputable proves that throwing curveballs prior to age 14 does no damage to an arm. I'll help you with this.....there isn't one. But that's ok, we'll risk blowing a ligament on Bert Blyleven Jr.'s 12 year old arm because having him throw all those sweepers to the other 12 year olds will certainly lock up that scholly to LSU in 5 years, or for that matter, insure that high draft pick and weekly visits from Scott Boras.

My opinion is my own, backed up by personal experience and shared by Dr. James Andrews. (I think he meets your criteria listed above)

2) The batting helmet was invented and first used in 1905. Not sure what that has to do with Little League.

3) The other items you refer to are not exclusive to Little League. As a side note to that, I find it odd that after 85 pitches, they will allow for the pitcher to go to 3rd, SS, or the OF....... yet they had to create a "special pinch runner" so they can participate more than the "minumum".

Show me where I said there was proof.

Dr Andrews is LL's primary consultant. He's doing their pitch-count promo during the LLWS. Strange he hasn't asked them to ban curveballs.

Watch these:

The Experts Speak

You'll hear them refer to Dr Hale. Read this:

The modern plastic double earflap batting helmet was invented by Creighton Hale of LL. PROFILE: Creighton J. Hale

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Show me where I said there was proof.

Dr Andrews is LL's primary consultant. He's doing their pitch-count promo during the LLWS. Strange he hasn't asked them to ban curveballs.

Watch these:

The Experts Speak

You'll hear them refer to Dr Hale. Read this:

The modern plastic double earflap batting helmet was invented by Creighton Hale of LL. PROFILE: Creighton J. Hale

Dr James Andrews.....

"My thought on it is you shouldn't throw a curveball until you can shave."

Not many kids out there who shave at age 12...

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Get a life.

I am no LL fan but, if thats all the fault you can find with them.

Welllllllllll, just get a life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hmmmm. The big smiley face did not do it's job.

Lighten up Francis.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by asdf

Dr James Andrews.....

"My thought on it is you shouldn't throw a curveball until you can shave."

Not many kids out there who shave at age 12...

But he didn't ask them to ban curveballs (yet) because it's his opinion, not yet backed by reasonable evidence - and he knows it. That's why the studies are continuing.

So far, overuse and fatigue correlate to more damage. Curves don't so far.

But why let science get in the way if opinion? Legend has it that a state legislature once wanted to repeal the law of gravity. People once swore a curve ball doesn't curve.

Some hypotheses turn out to be true, others false. The jury is still out here.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

But he didn't ask them to ban curveballs (yet) because it's his opinion, not yet backed by reasonable evidence - and he knows it. That's why the studies are continuing.

So far, overuse and fatigue correlate to more damage. Curves don't so far.

But why let science get in the way if opinion? Legend has it that a state legislature once wanted to repeal the law of gravity. People once swore a curve ball doesn't curve.

Some hypotheses turn out to be true, others false. The jury is still out here.

Dr. Andrews performed Tommy John surgery on my college roomate's son. My college roomate asked what he could do, in a preventative sense, to reduce the odds of the same thing happening to his younger son (11 years old at the time).

Dr. Andrews response......

"Don't let him throw a curveball until he needs to shave".


That's good enough for me.



p.s -- "google" Dr. James Andrews -- you'll find a very similar quote attributed to him.

[dannyboy]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

They institute rules to protect their bodies but fail to care about their educational growth by keeping them out of school during their tournament.

How rude.

UmpTT,
What bugs me is that the daddys and mommys who are in the state, regional, and this level hustle back to home so their babes can catch up with youth football and whine that their kids should start, AND they have been serving their community representing them at the various levels of play, and hang the fact they missed three-five weeks of practices. I ranted sorry. You were mentioning education and those parents want time to catch up and most give that liberally and well they should.

Noticing the Ives, acdf chat- we all know overuse- pitching kids to failure is the real problem. Not curve balls. The second biggest problem - ignorant men acting as coaches who try to showcase their kids and live through them. Those boys are done in the 11th grade...not all but many have overpitched so much by the time they are seniors- totally, what a shame.

There are no do overs in overuse cases.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by asdf

Dr. Andrews performed Tommy John surgery on my college roomate's son. My college roomate asked what he could do, in a preventative sense, to reduce the odds of the same thing happening to his younger son (11 years old at the time).

Dr. Andrews response......

"Don't let him throw a curveball until he needs to shave".


That's good enough for me.



p.s -- "google" Dr. James Andrews -- you'll find a very similar quote attributed to him.

When did he make the statement?

Has the evidence, or lack thereof changed since then?

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

When did he make the statement?

Has the evidence, or lack thereof changed since then?

The kid had his surgery within the last 18 months.

i haven't seen any comments attributed to Dr. Andrews endorsing the throwing of curveballs any sooner and I would bet you never will.

He told my friend that the studies really won't shed a whole bunch of light on the matter since they are not performed in real-time. In other words, you cannot logistically re-create actual inning/game/season conditions on a sample large enough to make a solid finding.

My buddy has decided to not let his kid pitch..... at all....

[David B]

Originally Posted by asdf

The kid had his surgery within the last 18 months.

i haven't seen any comments attributed to Dr. Andrews endorsing the throwing of curveballs any sooner and I would bet you never will.

He told my friend that the studies really won't shed a whole bunch of light on the matter since they are not performed in real-time. In other words, you cannot logistically re-create actual inning/game/season conditions on a sample large enough to make a solid finding.

My buddy has decided to not let his kid pitch..... at all....

We have a kid right now in 9th grade having surgery. The way it was described is that the curve ball puts pressure on the growth plate and that causes separation and thus the pain.

Shame because he is a good kid and good pitcher. But, he's also been playing tournament ball since he was 10 and throwing curve balls.

Pitch counts might help some, but I think we see in MLB now what happens when you just overdo - look at Strausburg. They are not really saying, but there is major concern about his future from what I read on ESPN.

Of course what good is a pitch count when they pitch 80 or so pitches and then move to F2 and throw another 80 or so plus all the warm up pitches etc.,

Thansk
David

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by David B

We have a kid right now in 9th grade having surgery. The way it was described is that the curve ball puts pressure on the growth plate and that causes separation and thus the pain.

Shame because he is a good kid and good pitcher. But, he's also been playing tournament ball since he was 10 and throwing curve balls.

Pitch counts might help some, but I think we see in MLB now what happens when you just overdo - look at Strausburg. They are not really saying, but there is major concern about his future from what I read on ESPN.

Of course what good is a pitch count when they pitch 80 or so pitches and then move to F2 and throw another 80 or so plus all the warm up pitches etc.,

Thansk
David

I suspect we don't have many catchers or third basemen throwing curve balls.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by David B

We have a kid right now in 9th grade having surgery. The way it was described is that the curve ball puts pressure on the growth plate and that causes separation and thus the pain.

Shame because he is a good kid and good pitcher. But, he's also been playing tournament ball since he was 10 and throwing curve balls.

Pitch counts might help some, but I think we see in MLB now what happens when you just overdo - look at Strausburg. They are not really saying, but there is major concern about his future from what I read on ESPN.

Of course what good is a pitch count when they pitch 80 or so pitches and then move to F2 and throw another 80 or so plus all the warm up pitches etc.,

Thansk
David

I think this is a parental issue as well...I know that nobody wants to hold any parents accountable . The American way today is to blame everyone else.

[greymule]

There was talk of banning curve balls when I played LL 50 years ago.

What used to be called Little League elbow dates back to those days. It was either a piece of bone separating or a strained and slightly dislocated tendon. (One of the big magazines like Time or Life showed x-rays and diagrams.) Naturally, the scare generated calls for bans or other extreme action.

The damage to the elbow resulted from the type of curve ball that many kids first learn to throw—the sidearm curve in which the snap of the elbow contributes most of the spin. From a righty, the ball appears to be coming at the (RH) batter and then curves over the plate, a pitch that can be extremely effective against kids, though it's a "gopher" ball at higher levels. (Obviously, the same break can be obtained purely with the wrist, but a pitcher who has mastered the difficulty of snapping the wrist with good control will try to get on top of the ball and make it drop at least somewhat.)

It was fairly apparent what was damaging the kids' elbows. What was not known, however, was whether throwing the overhand curve (wrist, not elbow) would also have been damaging. Undoubtedly some pitchers hurt their arms from fatigue, too, and as everyone knows, many good LL pitchers are "all arm" if they don't have knowledgeable coaches.

We have a kid right now in 9th grade having surgery. The way it was described is that the curve ball puts pressure on the growth plate and that causes separation and thus the pain.

Do you know—elbow, shoulder, wrist?

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Show me where I said there was proof.

Dr Andrews is LL's primary consultant. He's doing their pitch-count promo during the LLWS. Strange he hasn't asked them to ban curveballs.

Watch these:

The Experts Speak

You'll hear them refer to Dr Hale. Read this:

The modern plastic double earflap batting helmet was invented by Creighton Hale of LL. PROFILE: Creighton J. Hale

Rich:
I think Andrews kind of speaks out of both sides of his mouth in that video, and in doing so, makes a case for both your and adf's position on the subject.
1) At one point he says "we have nothing against the curveball."
2) Further into the presentation, there's a chart that indicates a pitcher should not throw a curve until age 14.
3) Throughout the presentation he does emphatically shout out the dangers of overuse being a a major culprit in the cause of UCL injuries.