Do we really care what the rules are

[PeteBooth]

At various times throughout this year we have had threads on leagues wanting a MUST Slide" Rule, (we know there is no MUST Slide rule anywhere) or registering an out for a player throwing the bat or some "strange" ground rules which go against the book ruling.

All of this leads me to the point of my thread. If the league is basically a well behaved one (very limited problems) and they pay good money for our services do we really care what their rules are as long as we get a copy and know them up front?

I don't know about you, but I have umpired on fields where DBT was only about 6ft. from either side of first or third which meant that just about every over throw went into DBT. Therefore, this particular league had a ground rule that superceded the rule-book saying that any ball going into DBT from anywhere was a one base award - Period.

In addition, except for major league baseball (and they don't even follow the strict letter of the law sometimes), no league uses STRICT OBR. There are always EXCEPTIONS and as long as those exceptions are known up front do we really care.

If there is controversy over a league adopted rule - let them handle it. Rules are constantly being revised or changed anyway. if the league gets enough complaints over a certain ruling which isn't "crystal clear" or easy to enforce let them worry about it.

Here's a typical conversation at the plate with some leagues I umpire for. Coaches what rules are we playing by today and are there any exceptions? There is one men's league that allows a team to both start and finish with 8.

If they start the game with 8 they do not have to take an automatic out for the 9th spot, however, if their 9th player does show up then he is a Sub only meaning he can't enter the field as to make 9 players. He can sub for another player but the team must reamin with only 8.

Some might say - this is a strange rule - but it's their rule - they pay me $70 per game so who cares.

What's your take on local league rules? and do you really care what they are as long as they are known up front and the league is basically a well behaved one and the pay is good.

Pete Booth

[Tim C]

Pete:

Avery interesting question since it has been bantered about on boards like this for the last four years.

I worked a summer tournament where the right field line passed first base, when it touched the outfield grass it turned on a 45* angle towards CF, after about 40Â’ it angled back to the foul pole down the line . . . the reason, there was a light fixture hanging from a pole that was threatening to fall. The tourney organizer had teams from 4 states and in the height of the season couldnÂ’t find another facility.

So we played ANYTHING hit on the fly into the “black hole” was FOUL. It a ball was hit into the area it was a “Ground Rule Single” – other than that it was considered DBT.

When I posted this originally a few called me a “liar” and that no one would play a game like that. Others posted that they would NEVER have umpired under those conditions since it had made a “Travesty of the Game” . . . a few more experienced umpires said, “Cool!”

When we work summer ball our conversation at the dish in pre-game goes something like this:

Coach: “Yeah, we’re playing the Big Book today!”

Tee: “Would that be American or National League Rules?”

Coach: “Errr, what’s the difference” (since the merger of umpires I have lost all but the following).

Tee: “DH?”

Coach: “Oh yeah, and we play speed-up, must slide and FED rules for re-entry!”

Tee: “OKAY, what part of the ‘Big Book” do you use?”

Coach: “Errr, I really don’t know.”

In Portland we rarely even are told what basic rules are being played before we get to a site. I really wouldnÂ’t work much if I worried too greatly on local changes.

Our leagues include, but are not limited to:

Official Babe Ruth
Oregon Junior State
Junior Babe Ruth
Senior Babe Ruth
Class A American Legion
Class AAA American Legion
MABL U18
MABL 30 UP
MABL 40 UP
MABL 50 UP
MSBL Open
MSBL 30 UP
MSBL 40 UP

All these leagues play different rules. AND THAT DOES NOT COUNT “LOCAL” RULES FOR INDIVIDUAL FIELDS.

Individual Rules include:

Any ball hit that hits the overhead screen is dead (and it usually comes straight down on the PUÂ’s head).

All balls that pass first base and enter DBT (which is so close they do not allow a first base coach) are 1 base awards.

Any ball hit into the swings in centerfield is a LIVE BALL unless one of the mothers picks it up and wonÂ’t give it back.

Any ball that hits the “trim” of the dugout is live, however if it hits the face (about a ¼” revel) of the dugout it is dead. The two inside posts (in front of the dugout) are dead BUT the outside poles are live (unless the ball hits the revel). If the ball hits the concrete lip it is live but if it hit the step guard (an area) about 2” higher than the lip . . . the ball is dead.

This is just ONE FIELD dugout rules.

OK, to answer your question:

Like HHH, I believe in trying to satisfy the customer - - I worked games that I didn’t have any idea what the rules were – but we endured.

[greymule]

Valid points, Pete. Almost every league I do (from fourth- and fifth-grade girls' softball to men's baseball) has its own house rules. Off the top of my head:

1. Runners can steal third only, not second or home.
2. No stealing home, but if the catcher or pitcher tries a pick-off then the runner can go for home.
3. Start with 9, add the 10th when he comes.
4. Start with 9, 10th is a sub when he comes UNLESS he gets there before his first at bat.
5. You can steal, but only one base at a time--no advancing past the base stolen on overthrows.
6. Ball goes in the muddy part of the field, ground rule double. Ball goes OVER the muddy part, in play.
7. You can leave on the release, but it's a FORCE play if they throw to pick you off after the pitch.
8. Ball gets back to the pitcher, runners not halfway have to go back.
9. Courtesy runner for anyone at any time.
10. Three courtesy runners per game, coach chooses when.
11. Men hit large ball, women hit a smaller ball.
12. The tree in center field is considered "air"—catch a ball out of the branches, it's an out.
13. DBT line is for throws only. You can go catch anything and throw from DBT.
14. Everybody bats; no penalty if somebody leaves.
15. No double-wall bats.
16. Ball stays under the cars, double. Goes under and through past the cars, in play.

It goes on and on, and they're all OK with me, EXCEPT where there might be trouble, like "the runner must slide on a close play." I disabuse them of that one right away. If the house rule doesn't involve safety, let them do it. That being said, about that #16 . . .

[brandda]

I say it's their game (not ours) so it's their rules. The only caveat I have is that there needs to be someone at the local field who can interpret and rule on ground rules should it be necessary (a LL board member say). I also ask to get the ground rules in writing so that I can keep them in my pocket for reference between innings. My own personal pacifier.

BTW - One more ground rule that I have seen in LL which I actually like is the "no swing after a fake bunt attempt" rule. I wish LL would adopt this one generally as some third baseman is going to lose his teeth charging what he thinks is a bunt one of these days.

Tim - I love the swing/Mom rule. Classic.

[GarthB]

I have no problem enforcing local rules, provided that they are indeed "rules". That is, that they are rules of the local league, and not the rules of one of the coaches at the game.

More often than not when a coach tells me about local rules, they really aren't rules. This causes problems when one coach's rules conflict with the others.

As the local PONY UIC, I have access to the local rules as well as the national PONY rules. We play by those as well as those OBR rules not affected by the PONY rules. We do not play by any "coach's rules."

In short, yes, we should care about the rules and call the rules. It's okay if they are PONY, LL, Babe Ruth, MABL, MSBL, NABF, FED, NCAA, OBR, whatever. It's even okay if they are local adaptations. Just be sure that they are indeed RULES and not a coach's myth.

We should not call coach's myths for any reason, (Sorry, Peter)even if we want to satisfy the customer. The coach is not the customer. The league is. Satisfy the league and call their rules.

[Patrick Szalapski]

Agreed. I'll enforce just about anything as long as I know everyone's clear on the rule beforehand.

Supposedly, a ground rule cannot supercede a book rule, but what if THAT rule is superceded? Anything goes.

P-Sz

[jumpmaster]

I gotta agree with the gallery. We do this thing called baseball as a hobby (both us and the players and coaches). If the local league wants a rule that the pitcher has to wear a pink tu tu ok, this will make for some entertainment. I think where we draw the line is on safety. If we are gonna have ground rules, they should not interfere with or create the significant possibility of an unsafe situation (not that standing inside a box with some kid throwing 70-80 miles an hour is all that safe)

How would you handle this one? Babe Ruth 14-15 yo. 2nd inning, score 0-0 of a double header. Best team in league vs worst tm in league. Normally score would be 6-0 by now. Coach for the best team comes out and says "it's a local rule that the first game of the double header is reserved for the "B" team. And, the opposing coach can pick 2 players, that are 15, not to pitch in the first game." (He has a reputation for this kind of antics) The opposing coach is standing there and says "I thought that was only last year."

I am thinking this is bogus and the coach is scrambling to find a reason to tilt things in his favor. As I start to tell him too late, he should have covered it in pregame, my partner signals to me that we need to talk. My partner, being the league UIC, pulls me aside and says "I know what you are about to say. We did discuss this rule at the board meeting but I don't remember what the result was. This coach is also the President of the city youth baseball association, so tread lightly". Now, fuming and received the consent of the opposing coach, I politely tell the coach that for tonight we will play by this rule. However, if he wants anymore "local rules" he, as the president needs to provide a written copy of the local rules to the UIC or we will play by OBR and nothing else. We still have not seen any written local rules.

--
jumpmaster al

[Edited by jumpmaster on Jun 5th, 2002 at 08:41 AM]

[greymule]

Good point. You have to be careful when a league writes a rule that can be interpreted in different ways or that conflicts with another rule. Had one last night in junior high girls: you can steal, but you can't advance past the one base (but what if the throw goes into DBT?). So when a girl steals third and the catcher throws the ball into left field (not uncommon), the runner can't go home. But the rule says that the runner CAN be put out if she "overruns the base."

Well, one coach took that to mean that if she tries to advance when she is not permitted to, she can be tagged out. The other took it to mean only that if she overruns while trying to steal the base (i.e., fails to hold the bag), she can be tagged out. We went with the second interpretation.

I don't have a problem with ground rule triples or other modifications, but you do have to be careful when they throw a house rule at you. Could that rule create complications that they didn't foresee but that you might have to rule on--undoubtedly at a crucial point in the game?

[Jerry]

Baseball would be much, much simpler if everyone played by the same rules and with the same interpretations AND all the officials were trained professionals with bionic vision and the wisdom and judgement of Solomon. But it isn't and we're not.

As officials, we play a miniscule part in the realm of the sport. Most spectators don't go to the games to watch us; but they do expect we render our decisions impartially, with integrity and a basic knowledge of the rules. We owe it to ourselves and our profession to become familiar with whatever local rules are invoked and then to adjudicate the contest to the best of our abilities in conformance with those rules and accepted interpretations.

If a local rule reads, "The hands are part of the bat." why would it be up to us to say, "No they're not!" The best you can do is be familiar with the "real" rule, but invoke the local rule. To do otherwise is doing a disservice to the participants of the game you're officiating.

So you see . . . the hands CAN be part of the bat after all!
(Oops . . . that's a different discussion.)

[DDonnelly19]

Originally posted by Jerry
If a local rule reads, "The hands are part of the bat." why would it be up to us to say, "No they're not!" The best you can do is be familiar with the "real" rule, but invoke the local rule. To do otherwise is doing a disservice to the participants of the game you're officiating.

So you see . . . the hands CAN be part of the bat after all!
(Oops . . . that's a different discussion.)

Well, there's reasons why leagues shouldn't make up rules like this:

-- Teams that play in both leagues and tournaments will need to understand differences between the rules (not uncommon in summer vs. FED ball).

-- Umpires will need special training on league rules; some may have already been trained in other areas, and might try to apply the "real" rule as opposed to the league rule. Also, umpires trained by the league are going to have problems advancing since they likely don't know what the "real" rules are.

-- Most league rules are too vague, too obscure, too difficult to administer, etc. If a league did create a rule that "hands are part of the bat", does this still count even if the hand isn't in contact with the bat? What if the batter's entire arm is in contact with the bat, are the arms part of the bat as well? If there is a "must slide" rule, does the runner still need to slide if the catcher is 20' up the line? If there is a continuous lineup, what happens when one player leaves the game?

I understand there's a need to modify the rules for safety, speed-up, and participation purposes. But to invoke rules such as "hands are part of the bat" and "1+1 on an overthrow" because that's what most of the coaches think the rule is, that's getting ridiculous.

[Rog]

Having been led to believe that an umpire should first learn the rules and interpretations of baseball, I fail to see how most umpire's could ever incorporate the likes of the following into any game with any continuity - - -

A sample of some 2002 local ground rules:

4.1 Local Ground Rules - All Leagues

4.1.5 - In the event lightening is seen the umpires and/or coaches will immediately suspend play and all people should seek safety until the danger has passed. If one coach decides to pull his team from the playing field due to weather conditions, the game shall be suspended at that point in time.

4.1.21 - A minimum of 7 players must be present to constitute a legal game. In the event one team does not have seven participants present, the umpire will wait a maximum of 15 minutes to start the game. At that point, the game will be forfeited if the short manned team does not have at least seven rostered players present. At the discretion of the coaches, a scrimmage game may be played, but all pitching eligibility rules will apply.

4.1.22 - A runner is out if the runner does not slide when attempting to pass through a fielder who has the ball and is waiting to make a tag. A fielder not in possession of the ball, or in the act of fielding a ball, cannot impede the progress of a runner. This is deemed to be an obstruction and the umpire will award the runner the proper base he/she would have reached had the obstruction not taken place.

4.1.26 - If a specific situation is not covered by a specific local rule the Official Rules of Baseball will be used to settle the situation.

4.1.27 - If conflicting rules are stated, specific local League rules take precedence over specified local Ground Rules.

4.3 Boys Major League Baseball Rules

4.3.1 - Runners may steal second base, third base or home. Runners cannot advance on a dropped third strike.

4.3.3 - Any runner who misses a base while advancing, if seen by the umpire shall be called out at the end of the play (no appeal will be in effect). In the case of the third out, runs scored by runners behind the runner who missed a base shall not count.

4.3.4 - The ball is dead when an infielder returns the ball to the pitcher in the dirt circle of the pitcher's mound. Runners must return to their respective bases.

4.3.5 - Unlimited runs are allowed during an inning. However, there is a "12 run rule" in effect. If, after 4 complete innings, one team is behind by 12 or more runs, the game is automatically deemed completed. This is not optional. The playing teams can continue on playing in a "scrimmage" capacity for the remainder of the game, should both coaches agree.

4.3.11 - Nine players will be played in the field.

4.3.12 - Bunting is allowed.

4.3.13 - The balk rule is not enforced, however a pitcher will be subject to removal if he/she continues to exhibit the balk move after being warned by the umpire to stop.

4.3.14 - The infield fly rule will be enforced.


4.4 Boys Minor League Baseball Rules

4.4.1 - Base stealing is allowed at all bases with the exception of home base. No advancement to home can be made on a passed ball, wild pitch or a straight steal (e.g. runners on first and third; player steals second, runner on third cannot advance to home if a play is made to second base). The ball is dead and no runner may advance on any throw back to the pitcher (delayed steal). Runners cannot advance on a dropped third strike. Double steals are allowed. Overthrows on a steal, a player may not advance. Past balls at home plate, player may attempt to advance one base (not to home).

4.4.2 - No leading off of bases until the ball reaches home plate. If a player leaves base early, he/she must return to that base. If a player leaves a base early and the ball is hit, this will be a dead ball situation and the play will be repeated.

4.4.5 - Every player must field for a minimum of four complete innings. Players may re-enter the game at any time. However, one a pitcher is removed, he/she cannot re-enter the game to pitch. Every player must play a minimum of 8 innings in both the outfield and the infield during the season. Exceptions must be communicated to the League President.

4.4.14 - A batter who throws the bat will be warned. On the next offense, the player will be registered with an automatic out, all base runners will return to their original base.

4.5 - Instructional T-Ball/T-6 League Rules

4.5.4 - The Fair Ball Line is defined as a 15 foot radius drawn between the first and third base lines.

4.5.5 - A fair ball is a ball hit beyond the Fair Ball Line. When a fair ball is batted, the batter and runners should advance a maximum of one base.

4.5.6 - Any batted ball that does not cross the Fair Ball Line is a foul ball. When a foul ball is batted, runners retreat to their respective bases and the batter will make another attempt to hit the ball.

4.5.7 - 5 Year Olds: All hitting will take place off of a tee.

4.5.8 - 6 Year Olds: For the first 5 games of the season, all hitting will take place off of a tee. For the remainder of the season:

· In the first inning, each team will hit off of the tee.

· In the 2nd and 3rd innings, at the discretion of the coach, each batter may hit a ball pitched underhand by their coach.

4.5.19 - Any player intentionally throwing a bat in anger shall be removed for the remainder of the game.


Now, I fail to see how many an experienced umpire can avoid a major $hitstorm in any game using these rules. How can we expect inexperienced umpire's to endure this nonsense.
Any wonder the number of umpire's is dwindling....

[greymule]

Wow! I'd hate to have to facilitate the interpretation meeting for that set of rules. And just what is "a fifteen foot radius drawn between the first and third base lines"?

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by GarthB

We should not call coach's myths for any reason, (Sorry, Peter)even if we want to satisfy the customer. The coach is not the customer. The league is. Satisfy the league and call their rules.

Garth;

To me, the customer is the person that pays the bills. This is almost always the league in question. Rarely do individual coaches hire umpires any more.

And I have never called the hands as part of the bat for anyone under any circumstances. :o)

Peter