fair/foul

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Sven K

How in the world did the ball bounce back to the inside with two outside spinning bounced under its belt? Weird indeed.

I'm saying that the ball hit something to cause that bounce to the inside. No way that the ball doesn't pass over the base in doing so.

Bad luck that the ball was struck so that it would likely go foul, good luck to hit something to cause the inside bounce, bad luck to get the bad call. A lot of luck in such a game of skill.

If you think baseballs travel in a straight line, especially when they hit the ground, you have not seen many baseballs up close. This is very possible and I have seen something similar before. Not sure it is the exact same, but close. Balls spin, all the time and move just like a pitch. So it is very possible the distance the ball moved around the bag.

Peace

[Mrumpiresir]

I saw that exact thing last year. I'm PU. Sharply hit ground ball down the 3rd Base line. I definitely see the ball bounce past third base in foul territory and as I'm raising my hands and calling foul, I see the the ball take a sharp turn to the right and sure enough it lands in fair territory. Strange bounce with a lot of spin. Never saw it before and haven't seen it since. Had to explain to the OC that I properly called it foul as soon as it passed the bag. He didn't like it though.

[Fan10]

Phillies-Marlins Blown Call Costs Florida A Victory (VIDEO)

I've watched this video several times. At the 0:59 mark, it takes its last bounce before it gets to the bag. If you pause it right at the 0:59 mark as the ball makes its last bounce before getting to the bag, it appears to me that it is ON the foul line. It then passes the base and lands fair at the 1:03 mark.

In watching this, I'm having a hard time believing that it could have hit on the foul line at the 0:59 mark, passed the bag in foul territory, and then landed in fair territory.

Thoughts?

And, by the way, you'll have to ignore the TV guys. They go crazy at the 1:03 mark when it lands fair. They're ignoring the vital part of the play, which is what happens between the 0:59 mark and the 1:03 mark.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Fan10

Phillies-Marlins Blown Call Costs Florida A Victory (VIDEO)

I've watched this video several times. At the 0:59 mark, it takes its last bounce before it gets to the bag. If you pause it right at the 0:59 mark as the ball makes its last bounce before getting to the bag, it appears to me that it is ON the foul line. It then passes the base and lands fair at the 1:03 mark.

Nothing we do not already know if you are talking about the last bounce before the bag.

Originally Posted by Fan10

In watching this, I'm having a hard time believing that it could have hit on the foul line at the 0:59 mark, passed the bag in foul territory, and then landed in fair territory.

Thoughts?

And, by the way, you'll have to ignore the TV guys. They go crazy at the 1:03 mark when it lands fair. They're ignoring the vital part of the play, which is what happens between the 0:59 mark and the 1:03 mark.

I cannot say for sure. I will never say this was a right or a wrong call. But the reality is the umpire was right there and had a much better angle than we got to see. I do know that the ball does funny things and having been in that situation you can see the play much more clear than we get with the tape that was provided. And even if you had replay, this would have been inconclusive.

Peace

[David B]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Nothing we do not already know if you are talking about the last bounce before the bag.



I cannot say for sure. I will never say this was a right or a wrong call. But the reality is the umpire was right there and had a much better angle than we got to see. I do know that the ball does funny things and having been in that situation you can see the play much more clear than we get with the tape that was provided. And even if you had replay, this would have been inconclusive.

Peace

I agree with you that replay would have done no good on this play. I think its even more convincing to me since Davidson was way off the line when making the call, which would make the ball seem more fair to him than foul; so obviously he saw exactly where the ball hit to make his call.

Thanks
David

[greymule]

The idiocy never ends on that Yahoo! thread:

This is from "Robert."

If anyone had bothered to look in the baseball rule book they'd clearly see that the ball was foul as soon as it made contact with the ground--in foul territory--prior to the 3rd base bag (I'm a former minor league and college umpire who's heard his earful over the years). Where the ball goes after that is immaterial. Watch Davidson's arms go up signaling foul just as soon as the ball touches the ground the first time. GOOD CALL!

[jkumpire]

This is a great example of how the Internet and ESPN are just awful for sports...

You make replays available for anyone to see unlimited times, allow any yahoo without a clue to say whatever they want anonymously, and it reinforces the stereotype that everyone who is not overtly for you and agrees with you is a stupid %^$#*%^*U%*%# who cheats you at the drop of a hat. Then it becomes a great big echo chamber.

Ugh. It's getting worse than politics on the Internet.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by greymule

The idiocy never ends on that Yahoo! thread:

This is from "Robert."

If anyone had bothered to look in the baseball rule book they'd clearly see that the ball was foul as soon as it made contact with the ground--in foul territory--prior to the 3rd base bag (I'm a former minor league and college umpire who's heard his earful over the years). Where the ball goes after that is immaterial. Watch Davidson's arms go up signaling foul just as soon as the ball touches the ground the first time. GOOD CALL!

Thats what so great about this country. Stupid people are still allowed to talk and write in public. There ought to be a law banning this type of behavior.

What is great about this is, everyone else watched the video to see what the ball did, this "former minor league and college umpire" looked in the rulebook to watch it.

You just can't make this stuff up.

[Sven K]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you think baseballs travel in a straight line, especially when they hit the ground, you have not seen many baseballs up close. This is very possible and I have seen something similar before. Not sure it is the exact same, but close. Balls spin, all the time and move just like a pitch. So it is very possible the distance the ball moved around the bag.

Peace

For the ball to curve around the bag it would need to have tremendous clockwise spin (looking down at the diamond). Foul balls hit in this manner are spinning counter-clockwise (hooking). You would need some highly unusual hand action or have it be cued off the end of the bat to get clockwise spin on a ball pulled down the line such as this by a right-hand hitter. This is further reinforced by the fact that the ball bounced from fair territory into foul and rolled further foul as it made its way toward the left field corner.

I think Davidson called it as he anticipated it would go and didn't have time to stop his call in midstream when it took the funny bounce.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Sven K

For the ball to curve around the bag it would need to have tremendous clockwise spin (looking down at the diamond). Foul balls hit in this manner are spinning counter-clockwise (hooking). You would need some highly unusual hand action or have it be cued off the end of the bat to get clockwise spin on a ball pulled down the line such as this by a right-hand hitter. This is further reinforced by the fact that the ball bounced from fair territory into foul and rolled further foul as it made its way toward the left field corner.

I think Davidson called it as he anticipated it would go and didn't have time to stop his call in midstream when it took the funny bounce.

My only point is that baseballs do not travel in completely straight lines, even if they never hit the ground. I am saying if we think about it we have all seen baseballs take funny bounces and this is no exception. And there is no evidence that says it did or did not cross the bag other than where the ball bounced. But that is not what you decide to make the call. Did the ball cross the front part of the bag, that is all that matters.

Peace

[kylejt]

Come on now, JR. It bounced fair just before the bag, and just after it. Honestly, what else could it be?

But Davidson had to use only the first bounce as evidence, THEN judge f/f as passed over the bag, as he was backing away from the projectile. Not easy. He didn't have the luxury of seeing the second bounce, which proved his miscue.

It would have been refreshing to see him own it after the game, but that's not how most of them roll.

Here's another teaching point for all you rookies out there: When in doubt, call it FAIR. It's far easier to unring that bell, with help from the PU after the fact. It's really hard to undo a foul call.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Come on now, JR. It bounced fair just before the bag, and just after it. Honestly, what else could it be?

What kind of argument is this? How about this logic: The fielder had the ball in his possession before and after the tag -- who cares if he had it during?

Originally Posted by kylejt

But Davidson had to use only the first bounce as evidence, THEN judge f/f as passed over the bag, as he was backing away from the projectile.

He had to use a bounce as evidence? Um, no. How about: he observed the ball as it went past 3B and made his judgement at that point.

Originally Posted by kylejt

Not easy. He didn't have the luxury of seeing the second bounce, which proved his miscue.

What part of a fair/foul decision on a bounding ball are you not understanding? The ONLY thing Davidson had to judge is the ball's position as it passed the bag. Nothing, -- I'll repeat: NOTHING -- else matters.

Originally Posted by kylejt

It would have been refreshing to see him own it after the game, but that's not how most of them roll.

Own what? He made the call and stood by it. There is NOTHING to disprove his call. If this were the Little League World Series, the call could NOT be overturned -- there is NOTHING to prove the umpire's judgement was wrong. At this point, the ONLY thing that matters is the umpire's judgement.

Originally Posted by kylejt

Here's another teaching point for all you rookies out there: When in doubt, call it FAIR. It's far easier to unring that bell, with help from the PU after the fact. It's really hard to undo a foul call.

Here's a better tip: If you know it's foul, call it FOUL. I don't think Davidson had any doubt with his call. If he had, he probably would have had a Kumbaya with the other umpires.

[greymule]

Without re-re-re-opening the can of worms about how a baseball can or cannot move in the air, I've seen monsters swinging hot bats crush softballs that "do the impossible." How about a ball lined over the pitcher's head that ends up leaving the park in right-center? Or a line smash over F5's head that then suddenly drops practically straight down and hits the infield dirt?

I agree that Davidson should not have relied on—or even looked at—the bounce after the bag. He seemed quite confident of his call afterward, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. At worst, it was a missed close call, and unless MLB had cameras everywhere, a replay would likely not have reversed it.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Here's another teaching point for all you rookies out there: When in doubt, call it FAIR. It's far easier to unring that bell, with help from the PU after the fact. It's really hard to undo a foul call.

Here's another teaching point: Ignore this one and stop thinking that you can push your calls onto someone else. Do the best you can, make the best call you can, and then when the coach comes out and goes call shopping, tell him it's your call to make, you made it, and that's the end of it.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Here's another teaching point for all you rookies out there: When in doubt, call it FAIR. It's far easier to unring that bell, with help from the PU after the fact. It's really hard to undo a foul call.

Bullcrap, call what you think you see and live up to it like Davidson did. I am all for getting it right but, this is one where you have step up to the plate and do your job PERIOD