Hidden Ball Trick

[truspartan]

Hey guys --- first time poster. A basketball official that I know put me on to this site as a good resource. My background is much less official/professional than probably everyone here -- I'm a dad who has coached my son for the past 6 years because they needed people to coach. I've learned a ton about strategy and rules and continue to learn. My son is now in 13-15 baseball and I coach his team. It's an independent (from Little League) baseball league and we are governed by NFHS rules. But I have a question on the "hidden ball trick"

Here's the situation --- pitcher and infielder meet in infield to "discuss" and switch the ball from the pitcher to the infielder to deceive the runner into thinking the pitcher still has the ball. Runner leads off and infielder with ball tags the runner claiming he's out. However, the pitcher was on the mound (not the rubber) without the ball. Balk or no balk? Does the pitcher have to be on the rubber without the ball? Or just the mound?

I've heard answers both ways and don't have a copy of the NFHS rules to verify. It's a bush-league move at least, but is it against the rules?

[bob jenkins]

In NFHS, it's a balk if the pitcher is within "approximately 5' of the rubber".

In OBR, it's a balk if F1 is "on or astride" the rubber.

In NCAA, it's a balk if F1 is on the dirt.

Note also, that this assumes that the ball remained live during the entire process. If the ball became dead, then this is neither an out nor a balk. Get the ball back to the pitcher and resume play.

[truspartan]

Thanks --- I'd heard mixes of all of those but the 5' from the rubber is the one I had thought.

[jicecone]

Bob, not that it matters for this thread, but isn't NCAA changing or proposing a change on this for 2010 Rulebook. Thought I read this somewhere.

[Forest Ump]

Just remember that it is impossible to have a hidden ball trick following a time out. It doesn't matter if the plate umpire says play. If the pitcher did not have the ball when the PU inadvertently said play then the ball was never legally put in play. No balk, no out, start over.

[johnnyg08]

How the hidden ball trick works many times is that the fielder never actually throws the ball back to F1. During a live ball pick off play or when getting the ball back from the outfield they will keep the ball live and not throw it back to F1...often times faking a throw. If F6 was going to have a conference w/ F1...likely, time would be called and I think Forest Ump is correct in reading post #5.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

If F6 was going to have a conference w/ F1...likely, time would be called .

Not in these parts. Your situation may differ.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

If F6 was going to have a conference w/ F1...likely, time would be called and I think Forest Ump is correct in reading post #5.

Just curious - not picking... wondering why time would "likely" be called. I can see it occasionally being called (by a fielder), but obviously never before an attempted hidden ball trick.

[johnnyg08]

don't see the hidden ball trick very often...in fact 1 time in probably 1,000 games.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

don't see the hidden ball trick very often...in fact 1 time in probably 1,000 games.

But the question was - why do you "likely" have time if F6 (or F3) visits F1?

[johnnyg08]

Well, if a player requests time to go talk to his pitcher, I will almost always grant time to allow him to talk with his pitcher.

If he doesn't request time, I will leave everything live. So if a play is "on" and he has been coached properly, he wouldn't request time, I would leave the ball live and see if they properly execute the play.

[MD Longhorn]

Well sure... but that doesn't jibe with "If F6 was going to have a conference w/ F1...likely, time would be called ". Most likely, it would not have been... and nearly all of the time before an attempted hidden ball, it would not have been.

[truspartan]

Well, personally I think it's a bush-league play anyway so I'm going to keep an eye on this particular team and anytime there's a meeting of the infielders I'll just call time ... that will force the pitcher to take the ball to the mound

[Adam]

Originally Posted by truspartan

Well, personally I think it's a bush-league play anyway so I'm going to keep an eye on this particular team and anytime there's a meeting of the infielders I'll just call time ... that will force the pitcher to take the ball to the mound

Wow.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by truspartan

Well, personally I think it's a bush-league play anyway so I'm going to keep an eye on this particular team and anytime there's a meeting of the infielders I'll just call time ... that will force the pitcher to take the ball to the mound

Talk about a game stopper.....

You sound like a partner that grants a time out request so the shortstop can throw the ball to the pticher after a base hit....