Lightning/Thunder Delay

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rcichon

Our league mandates this:
Hear it, clear it.
See it, flee it.

30 minute clock on hearing thunder. Next one withing 30 minutes: go home.
See lightning, go home.

I don't understand why you wait if you hear it, but go home if you see it. Depending on the amount of daylight and the direction, you can sometimes hear thunder when you can't see lightning, and you can sometimes see lightning when you can't hear the thunder.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rcichon

Our league mandates this:
Hear it, clear it.
See it, flee it.

30 minute clock on hearing thunder. Next one withing 30 minutes: go home.
See lightning, go home.

That's a little bizarre, implying that visual lightning is somehow more real or more threatening than just hearing it... you know that if you hear thunder, the lightning exists somewhere - just as much as if you saw it. It isn't like thunder is a precursor to lightning or a lightning warning as such... it's the same thing.

[johnnyg08]

at the point of impact, the lightning happens first, the sound is secondary. so if you hear thunder, there's already lightning somewhere (which I know all of you know)

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

at the point of impact, the lightning happens first, the sound is secondary. so if you hear thunder, there's already lightning somewhere (which I know all of you know)

Technically untrue, but the point is the same. If you hear it, it exists somewhere.

(At "the point of impact", or more correctly at the point where the discharge originates, the light and sound occur simultaneously. As you increase distance from this point, the difference between light and sound becomes more apparent, as the speed of light is way faster than the speed of sound, and much of the sound is echo, not initial, sound.)

[scarolinablue]

On the topic, I have a game management question. Sitch: Working an American Legion game last week. "Threatening" skies to begin with, and with the visitors coming out for the bottom of the first, a nasty bolt threaded across the right field sky - about 12 seconds to the thunderclap, so only about 2-3 miles away. I cleared the field. We spend the next 75 minutes waiting out a lightning delay - looking at radar, we were right on the edge of a huge, slow-moving storm, but didn't get more than a couple of drops of rain. However, the lightning was always within a couple of miles.

Eventually, the storm wrapped around us and the bottom fell out, and we finally called the game. The problem I had was this - I had cleared the field due to the lightning. After about 30 minutes, and no rain, but the lightning threat was still there, the players (and some coaches) started trickling back onto the field - throwing, playing pepper, and generally horsing around. There was no way I would have allowed this to happen if I were the coach, and expressed this to the GM, and was waved off. This did not sit well with me, but I let it go, and prayed like crazy nobody got hit by lightning. In hindsight, I will not allow teams to go back on the field if at all possible, but I felt somewhat powerless once I had suspended the game, and was met with indifference by game management. What would you do in this situation?

[MrUmpire]

I like NOAA's very simple explanation:

"Thunder is the sound lightning makes."

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Technically untrue, but the point is the same. If you hear it, it exists somewhere.

(At "the point of impact", or more correctly at the point where the discharge originates, the light and sound occur simultaneously. As you increase distance from this point, the difference between light and sound becomes more apparent, as the speed of light is way faster than the speed of sound, and much of the sound is echo, not initial, sound.)

Interesting. Thanks

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by scarolinablue

The problem I had was this - I had cleared the field due to the lightning. After about 30 minutes, and no rain, but the lightning threat was still there, the players (and some coaches) started trickling back onto the field - throwing, playing pepper, and generally horsing around. There was no way I would have allowed this to happen if I were the coach, and expressed this to the GM, and was waved off.

You are NOT the coach but an umpire. As an umpire you did YOUR job when the game was in YOUR control meaning you vacated the area.

What the participants do after that is NOT on you EVEN if something horrible might happen.

Perhaps this particular Legion group forgot about the following incident that happend.

6/4/09 Lightning Kills Little League Baseball Player. | WDEF News 12 | News, Weather and Sports for Chattanooga and the Tennessee Valley

In a nutshell you did your JOB which was to vacate the area.

Pete Booth

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by scarolinablue

On the topic, I have a game management question. Sitch: Working an American Legion game last week. "Threatening" skies to begin with, and with the visitors coming out for the bottom of the first, a nasty bolt threaded across the right field sky - about 12 seconds to the thunderclap, so only about 2-3 miles away. I cleared the field. We spend the next 75 minutes waiting out a lightning delay - looking at radar, we were right on the edge of a huge, slow-moving storm, but didn't get more than a couple of drops of rain. However, the lightning was always within a couple of miles.

Eventually, the storm wrapped around us and the bottom fell out, and we finally called the game. The problem I had was this - I had cleared the field due to the lightning. After about 30 minutes, and no rain, but the lightning threat was still there, the players (and some coaches) started trickling back onto the field - throwing, playing pepper, and generally horsing around. There was no way I would have allowed this to happen if I were the coach, and expressed this to the GM, and was waved off. This did not sit well with me, but I let it go, and prayed like crazy nobody got hit by lightning. In hindsight, I will not allow teams to go back on the field if at all possible, but I felt somewhat powerless once I had suspended the game, and was met with indifference by game management. What would you do in this situation?

Screw Game Management. Once the game starts, YOU are in charge of the field, and YOU are in charge of whether the game starts again. It's your field - you cleared it for a reason, it should stay clear for a reason.

[MD Longhorn]

Obviously, Pete - from my above post, I disagree wholeheartedly.

[Altor]

We have this issue with track and field meets too. We tell them that "The track will open back up 30 minutes after the last strike" and they hear "We will start the next race 30 minutes after the last strike." So, of course, we have people jogging around the track to warm back up when there are still 10 minutes left on the clock...even while the announcer continues to tell them that the track is not yet open, please go back to your sheltered area.

I've never been the referee when this has happened, but I'd be tempted to start ejecting people for failure to follow the directions of an official. Don't know if baseball rules give umpires similar authority or not.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Screw Game Management. Once the game starts, YOU are in charge of the field, and YOU are in charge of whether the game starts again. It's your field - you cleared it for a reason, it should stay clear for a reason.

+1

If game management insisted that I restart a game before 30 minutes were up, I'd refuse (nicely, and with an explanation, but still).

I'd like to think I'd get my way on this point, and that they wouldn't intentionally endanger anyone. If they did, I'd leave.

[PeteBooth]

You are correct once the game STARTS. The game is NOW suspended and you have NO jurisdiction on what happens there-after. The umpires have to go to safety to and we as umpires might not even be near the field depending on the field demensions. When the game is in OUR control we do our job according to the 30-30 rule.

We are NOT babysitters. The poster said Legion baseball which means young adults at the age of 19 and under. Some are in college.

It's like this.

Assume we get to the game and it starts to rain. We stop the game. After the rain passes, the HT does their best to get the field ready for play but to no avail.

The HC comes to you as UIC and says "Blue the field is unplayable we are done for today"

According to you it is YOUR field so are you going to override the HC and say I do not care what you think IMO, the field is playable and we are going to finish.

Are you going to stand there and EJ every player and coach that goes onto the field in which you vacted?

How about you call the game and you are on your way to the car and the players have practice afterwards etc. Going to say something then as well.

Pete Booth

[MD Longhorn]

You know, I had spelled all that out and deleted it as unnecessary ... but I forgot the audience.

Obviously, if umpire says play and Field admin says no, it's no. Just as if umpire says no and Field admin says yes, it's no.

And no, if umpire clears the field, it does not remove the responsibility of the umpire - please show me what makes you think that. Umpire is in charge of the field from Play ball to Ballgame.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Obviously, Pete - from my above post, I disagree wholeheartedly.

FWIW, I agree with Pete. Stop the game, get yourself to a safe place. The rest is the coach's / BoD's responsibility.