The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Baseball
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 03, 2006, 02:47pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 37
Strike zone

On another baseball BB, I'm involved in a thread discussing the strike zone.

On individual made the following post.

The model I try to use for calling balls and strikes differs quite a bit from what your suggesting. Imagine a plate of glass suspended in the air. The front of the glass is directly above the front lip of the plate. The glass is 18" wide, and starts at a point halfway between the hitter's belt and the top of his shoulders when he is standing in his normal batting stance. The bottom of the glass ends at the hollow just below the hitter's kneecaps. There is no debth to the glass plate.

As I observe the pitch I register what I see and try and answer; did the ball break the plate of glass? Did any part of the ball touch any part of that glass plate? The secondary clues that make up much of this list just confirm or conflict with my assesment of the condition that glass plate is in.


I understand that the zone is pretty much up to the umpire’s judgment, but I’m of the belief that the zone is in fact 3 dimensional, not 2, and that what happens after the ball passes the plate shouldn’t have any bearing at all on the call.

As I said, I understand that in practice, many factors are involved, but I also believe the rules defining what the strike zone is, shouldn’t really be affected.

In practice, do most experienced umps try to take into account a pitch such as a slow curve “falling” into the zone, or something like a “flat” slider from a side armed guy missing the front edge but touching the zone someplace past the front of the plate?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 03, 2006, 02:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,219
Send a message via AIM to TussAgee11
The strike zone IS two dimensional.

The only problem with that poster's strike zone is that he is putting the strike zone at the front of the plate, instead of where the batter is standing.

There's no such thing as falling into the strikezone. If there was, all those 45 mph Little Leaguers would be throwing strikes everytime the ball came across the batter's eyes.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 03, 2006, 05:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Randolph, NJ
Posts: 1,936
Send a message via Yahoo to waltjp
3d

The strike zone is a cube. It's dimensions are 17in wide x 8.5in deep x height (distance between the batter's knees and the midpoint between his shoulders and the waistline). Add a couple of inches for the black if you're so inclined.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 03, 2006, 05:45pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South Bend, In.
Posts: 2,192
Send a message via AIM to BigUmp56 Send a message via Yahoo to BigUmp56
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltjp
The strike zone is a cube. It's dimensions are 17in wide x 8.5in deep x height (distance between the batter's knees and the midpoint between his shoulders and the waistline). Add a couple of inches for the black if you're so inclined.
I guess if we called our strike zones in a vaccuum it might look like a cube. The better umpires I know use the concept of an oval strike zone.


Tim.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 03, 2006, 06:09pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,236
The strike zone IS two dimensional.

The only problem with that poster's strike zone is that he is putting the strike zone at the front of the plate, instead of where the batter is standing.




Methinks you need to re-read the definition.
__________________
Rich Ives
Different does not equate to wrong
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 04, 2006, 09:08am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Randolph, NJ
Posts: 1,936
Send a message via Yahoo to waltjp
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigUmp56
I guess if we called our strike zones in a vaccuum it might look like a cube. The better umpires I know use the concept of an oval strike zone.


Tim.
I don't disagree, Tim. I'm just disputing the statement that the zone is like a plane of glass. It does have depth to it. Like officiating any sport, once you know the rules you have to learn how to apply them.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 04, 2006, 09:28am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South Bend, In.
Posts: 2,192
Send a message via AIM to BigUmp56 Send a message via Yahoo to BigUmp56
This is how I try to define my strike zone. Doing this helps me to avoid making a two plane gross miss.


I try to visualize the strike as an zone oval being expanded to about 22" at it's mid-point. The mid-point of the oval is stationed near the mid-thigh of the batter in his sweet spot. Then imagine the vertical limits of this oval starting at the knee extending up to a point near the bottom of the numbers. If a pitch catches the outer limits of the oval at it's mid-point it is a strike without question. As the oval extends downward toward the bottom limit of the zone, there is less and less latitude given to a pitch that is on the same horizontal plane as the pitch called a strike at the mid-thigh. This would include the inside or the outside pitch. The same thing can be said for the oval extending upwards in the zone. Up and in is a ball. Up and out is a ball. Up and on the plate at the bottom of the numbers is a strike.


Tim.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 03, 2006, 06:34pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 1,577
Cool Much lower level

Quote:
Originally Posted by waltjp
The strike zone is a cube. It's dimensions are 17in wide x 8.5in deep x height (distance between the batter's knees and the midpoint between his shoulders and the waistline). Add a couple of inches for the black if you're so inclined.
Very few umpires ever call the high strike zone, or even acknowledge it's existence.
The perfect strike crosses into the zone at or near the "waste" line.

http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/of...trike_zone.jsp

Subtract a half foot or more from the top of the batter in the picture for a more realistic MLB scale drawing.
Nine out of ten ballplayers prefer the lower zone. No one ever gives the ump much grief about it either.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 03, 2006, 07:17pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
Subtract a half foot or more from the top of the batter in the picture for a more realistic MLB scale drawing.
Nine out of ten ballplayers prefer the lower zone. No one ever gives the ump much grief about it either.
I admit I don’t know much more about the zone than any other average fan, but I do know that what I hear and read is, MLB is trying to get the umps to call the zone displayed in the picture you refer to rather than the one you say they do.

My understanding is that’s the main reason systems like “QuesTec” and the “K-zone” are being used to actually grade pro umps. QuesTec is now in 23 of the ML parks, and I don’t know how many Minor league parks use it, but its more than just 1 or 2.

From what I’ve come across on the subject, the umps aren’t real happy about being graded, and the P’s are enjoying the heck out of getting more of a zone.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 03, 2006, 09:21pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 1,577
Talking Also Reported

I read the politicos were upset with the strike zone being called more than 6 inches off the plate {ala Greg Maddux or Eric Greg et al}. Baseball leadership said it would be corrected. The electronic systems were not truly perfect from one batter to the next, either. The umps were not very happy to be told that their borderline calls were questionable. Those evaluations were strictly used for training purpose only, and not actually rating performance quality. Umpires are human and mistakes are part of the game.

Whether the high strike is called as often as the inside, outside and bottom of the zone is a mystery. I feel the height of the strike zone really isn't much different now, than before (pure opinion). But then again, I also believe in the posiibility (as small as it may be) of a rising fastball. I doubt the pitchers are really happy with a "higher" strike zone. Slow motion video instant replay may provide a better picture of events.

Disclaimer: All statements are simply one opinion subject to change over time.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 03, 2006, 10:26pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
The perfect strike crosses into the zone at or near the "waste" line.

.
The perfect strike for whom?
Certainly not for the pitcher
LOL
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 03, 2006, 06:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by TussAgee11
The strike zone IS two dimensional.

The only problem with that poster's strike zone is that he is putting the strike zone at the front of the plate, instead of where the batter is standing.

There's no such thing as falling into the strikezone. If there was, all those 45 mph Little Leaguers would be throwing strikes everytime the ball came across the batter's eyes.
Please have patience. I don’t post here often and don’t wanna offend anyone.

What I understand you to be saying is, the plate has no relevance to anything other than to determine the width. I must admit, I’d never thought of it that way, so I’d like to ask a question to see if I’m really understanding what you’re saying.

Its not likely, but it is possible for a batter to put his back foot on the line, and never stand where he’s even with any part of the plate by staying within that 27.5” behind the plate. It sounds like what you’re saying is, that’s where the pitches should be called. Am I understanding what you’re saying correctly?

As for a ball “falling” into the zone, I can’t argue that one if you believe the “zone” only has 2 dimensions.

Also, I have to admit that I was thinking more along the lines of the way MLB sees the zone, not the way LL’rs(generic) see it.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 04, 2006, 09:36am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,794
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckweat
Please have patience. I don’t post here often and don’t wanna offend anyone.

What I understand you to be saying is, the plate has no relevance to anything other than to determine the width. I must admit, I’d never thought of it that way, so I’d like to ask a question to see if I’m really understanding what you’re saying.

Its not likely, but it is possible for a batter to put his back foot on the line, and never stand where he’s even with any part of the plate by staying within that 27.5” behind the plate. It sounds like what you’re saying is, that’s where the pitches should be called. Am I understanding what you’re saying correctly?

As for a ball “falling” into the zone, I can’t argue that one if you believe the “zone” only has 2 dimensions.

Also, I have to admit that I was thinking more along the lines of the way MLB sees the zone, not the way LL’rs(generic) see it.
If the plate was a pane of glass, the way the catcher caught the ball would have no bearing whatsoever in the calling of strikes and slow-breaking curveballs could hit the knees at the front of the plate and be caught ankle high for a strike.

Neither of these is reality in any real level of baseball.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 04, 2006, 10:04am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser
If the plate was a pane of glass, the way the catcher caught the ball would have no bearing whatsoever in the calling of strikes and slow-breaking curveballs could hit the knees at the front of the plate and be caught ankle high for a strike.

Neither of these is reality in any real level of baseball.
Is it NOT a reality because the rules say its not, because human beings aren’t capable of calling a pitch by the rules, or because there’s more pressure from what people would like the game to be than from what the game is?

Personally, I don’t really care a whole lot how pitches are called, as long as its by the rules. I believe that sooner or later pitches will be called electronically, and one of two things will happen. The game will be better for it, or the game will be worse.

If the game is better for it, YOAHOO! If the game is worse, change the rules! No rule in baseball is sacrosanct. What a strike is and what the strike zone is have both changed many times over the years, and there’s no reason to expect it will never change again.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 04, 2006, 05:45pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckweat
Is it NOT a reality because the rules say its not, because human beings aren’t capable of calling a pitch by the rules, or because there’s more pressure from what people would like the game to be than from what the game is?

Let it go, Rich. Its tiring to explain this over and over, aint it?


buck, when you can appreciate what Rich is saying, you will be able to progress from where you are now to the level you want to be.

Last edited by LMan; Sun Jun 04, 2006 at 05:48pm.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Strike Zone Stripes1950 Baseball 27 Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:20pm
Strike Zone rwest Softball 20 Tue Oct 07, 2003 06:47am
strike zone archer Softball 22 Tue Sep 23, 2003 04:39pm
MLB strike Zone mick Baseball 3 Fri May 30, 2003 07:59pm
The New Strike Zone Ump20 Baseball 1 Mon Mar 19, 2001 10:17pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:16am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1