batter/runner unintentionally kicks blocked pitch

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Darien,

The NCAA rule book contains the following Approved Ruling following it's third strike not caught rule:



JM

OK - well that's there in black and white, huh

My take on the "if not" portion was along the lines of it wasn't an uncaught 3rd strike - it was "just a pitch" - I wasn't thinking about the DK3 with less than 2 outs and 1B occupied as I read it.

Mis-read, my bad.

[TussAgee11]

You only give 2 from time of deflection if it either a) hits the backstop, goes back into the catcher, and then into DBT; b) the ball comes to rest and is then kicked in by the catcher; or c) the catcher intentionally kicks it into DBT. In a, the reasoning is once it kicks back into play it is no longer a pitched ball. In b, once it comes to rest, no longer a pitched ball. And in c, the catcher intentionally makes contact with a pitched ball, making him liable for whatever happens to it after that point.

If it is off the batter, I don't see how we can have anything but one base TOP. Same as if it never hit him. Its a pitched ball going into DBT. The ball hitting the batter after hitting the catcher on a 3rd strike does not change the status of the ball. It is still a pitched ball.

[JJ]

The ruling on the field, after much huddling and consulting of the rule book, was everyone was advanced 2 bases from the TOP. The book doesn't actually address this specific situation, but the logic was it was an unintentionally deflected pitch (as opposed to a pitch that had stopped rolling and was THEN kicked into DBT).
Neither coach argued - because nobody had ever seen it before and didn't know what the correct ruling was!

JJ

[TussAgee11]

How could the logic be that it was a deflected pitch, so they get 2??? Deflected pitch is still a pitch, so its 1 TOP.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

How could the logic be that it was a deflected pitch, so they get 2??? Deflected pitch is still a pitch, so its 1 TOP.

I didn't say it was RIGHT, I said this was the ruling on the field. I posted the incident hoping to gain more insight into what the correct ruling might have been. Of course you're correct that a deflected pitch is still a pitch, but the impetus for the ball going into the dugout was the kick, not the momentum of the pitch itself. That's why, when I had the incident described to me, I thought, "Hmmmm"...

JJ

[TussAgee11]

It does not matter that the batter unintentionally made contact with it causing it to go out of play.

If we had a play at third and a thrown ball hit a sliding runner instead of being caught by the 3B, and then deflected into DBT, we still have a thrown ball out of play. This is no different, except it started as a pitched ball, and it remains, a pitched ball until it becomes either batted or thrown.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

How could the logic be that it was a deflected pitch, so they get 2??? Deflected pitch is still a pitch, so its 1 TOP.

There's a difference between a pitch that is deirectly deflected out of play (1 base, TOP), and a pitch which is missed and is subsequently deflected out of play. There, the award is two bases, but might be TOP or TOT, depending on the circumstances.

In OBR, see 7.05(h) AR (that's from an old book, so the numbering mayhave changed).

NCAA has a similar rule (8-3.0(4)). Althought it talks only about a fielder deflecting the pitch, I'd apply it to the batter deflecting the pitch.

[TussAgee11]

I may not be remember this totally correctly, and if so I'd certainly like to get it straightened out Bob.

In regard to the rule you cited, 7.05h AR:

Notice how it says the ball "remains on the playing field". This could just as easily say "and comes to rest", because I believe that is what it is interpreted as.

If a pitch is trickling to the dugout, and the catcher leans over, stumbles, and muffs it into the dugout, its one TOP because the ball did not come to rest. If he does so intentionally, he is considered to have changed the status of the ball to a thrown ball, and two is given from the time of that deflection. Same thing goes on a ball that richocet's off the baskstop, back into the catcher, and then into DBT, 2 bases, time of deflection.

I really am almost sure of this Bob, because I think 7.05h AR (the second paragraph that is) only applies when the ball comes to rest.
If someone has J/R or JEA on this hidden away somewhere, either way, now's the time! Don't care if I'm wrong, would just like to know it.

[UmpJM]

Tuss,

From the MLBUM discussion of "Balls Deflected Out of Play":

...

(3) If a pitched ball (or a ball thrown by the pitcher while in contact with the rubber) goes through or by the catcher (or fielder), remains on the playing field, and is subsequently kicked or deflected out of play (unintentionally in either case), the award is two bases from the time of the pitch. This ruling applies without regard to whether or not the ball would have gone out of play had it not been kicked or deflected. (See the Approved Ruling to Official Baseball Rule 7.05(h).)

...

The bit about "..applies without regard to whether or not the ball woud have..." makes it clear to me that the ruling applies whether or not the ball has come to rest and that your assumption in that regard is incorrect.

J/R also has a case play that demonstrates this (Under the heading "Examples: Subsequent Push":

2----- R1. A wild pitch deflects off the catcher toward a nearby dugout. He immediately gives chase. The ball ricochets sharply off a cement wall back toward the field of play, then is redirected off the catcher's shin guard and into the dugout: susbsequnet push of the pitch. R1 is awrded 3B.

Finally, the JEA discussion of the 7.05(h) AR referenced by bob includes the following:

Thrown or pitched balls from the rubber which get by the catcher or any fielder and are subsequently deflected out of play require special attention by the umpire.

The umpire must determine whether the ball went out of play directly or was subsequently caused to go out of play.

A ball which goes directly out of play and is not subsequently touched by a fielder shall result in a one base award based on the position of the runners at the time of the pitch or throw.

A ball which goes through or by the catcher/fielder or is initially deflected by him and then subsequently kicked
or deflected into a dead ball area results in a two base award based on the position of the runner/s at the time of
the pitch.

Again, no mention of the ball coming to rest - only that it must subsequently be touched to be considered "non-direct" and worthy of a two base (rather than one base) award.

JM

[dash_riprock]

I think there's a good argument that 7.05h AR does not contemplate the batter (or B/R) causing the contact that directed the ball out of play. J/R uses "subsequent push" to determine the base award pursuant to 7.05h, and SP is defined as the action of a fielder. I vote for considering it still a pitch (or an in-contact throw) and awarding one base TOP.

It just doesn't seem right to award a runner two bases due to the actions of his teammate.

[UmpJM]

dash,

I think that's a valid question.

All of the interps I've found that support the two base award and mention WHO deflects it out of play always mention a fielder rather than a runner.

But I believe the correct interp is that you would treat it the same if it did deflect off a runner.

To me, the consistent principle is not so much who, but rather did the initial force of the pitch, as possibly modified by an initial attempt to catch the pitch, cause the ball to go out of play - or was there subsequent contact which resulted in the ball going out of play.

If the pitch "rebounds" off the catcher and is subsequently deflected out of play (unintentionally) by either the BR or a fielder, I'm going with 2, TOP.

JM

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

It just doesn't seem right to award a runner two bases due to the actions of his teammate.

I don't think that's the right way to understand what happened. For one thing, the "teammate" didn't do anything deliberately other than run to 1B. But the main point is that the ball wouldn't have been deflected at all if the pitcher and catcher had done their jobs correctly. That's 2 screw-ups by the defense to 1 by the offense!