4th Out Appeal

[pastordoug]

Wow, I didn't expect this post to go one like it has although IMO it has been very informative. But let me try and clear up, as the Original Poster, a couple of items.

First, let me make this clear that the coach was not trying to appeal both runners leaving ealier in 1 appeal..... He wasn't sure, IMO because of the BU not "selling" the catch, if there was a catch.... Then, after determining there was he went fishing

I think this is significate due to the fact that his appeal could, and as we found out, did make a difference in a run counting.

I also, will it might be a valid request as suggested by Rich, would still have the coach give his order of appeal because the outcome of the appeal isn't based on what the HC beleives but on what the PU or BU has seen. This could also result in runs counting or not counting.

Again, thanks for the information shared. It has been helpful.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

I asked two questions:

You mean I can't say, in one sentence, "I'm appealing that R2 and R3 both left early"?

And I, aprpropriately sticking to the informatin of the OP, rhetorically asked:

"Is that what he (the coach in the OP said?"

You expect me to believe that's not valid?

If the coach had so clearly appealed as you phrased it, I believe it would be valid.

My read of the post is that he did not.

And BTW yes, in the original OP I really think he was appealing both runners.

I don't. The umpire at the time didn't. It even appears that the coach didn't.

He, at best, asked a rule question, which could have been a precursor to an appeal.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by yawetag

If a coach says "What about the runners leaving earlier?" to me, my response would be "What about them?" While I agree CI states to give the coach the options, I don't recall reading that wording anywhere else in the rules. It's not my job to tell a coach how to appeal. However, if he says he wants to appeal, I'll get the info I need to rule on the appeal:

Coach: "What abut the runners leaving earlier?"
Me: "What about them?"
C: "They left the base too early."
M: "Which runner?"
C: "The one at first base."
M: "So, you're appealing the runner at first left the base early and didn't tag up?"
C: "Yes."
M: "Okay." (rules on the appeal)

I suppose this is similar to how I'd handle it.

"What exactly are you asking me?"

"If you'd like to appeal, then please state your appeal to me."

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

and jkumpire too:

You mean I can't say, in one sentence, "I'm appealing that R2 and R3 both left early"?


You expect me to believe that's not valid?

Rich,

Having given your question some thought, I believe I would not accept two appeals in one sentence.

The reason is, there are situations where the "order of appeals" could have a material impact on the game, depending on the sequnce they were made.

I would not want any ambiguity regarding that sequence. So if a coach WERE to make a "compound appeal sentence" (assuming we're in a FED game, and Time has been called), I'd simply say something like, "Let's take it one at a time, Rich. What would you like to appeal?"

JM

[Rich Ives]

The OP:

Runners on 1st and 3rd with 1 out. Trouble ball to center, both runners take off and great catch is made. Problem was BU did not do a good job letting everyone know there was a catch which warrants a reminder to all, make sure to sell that play because it only leads to trouble later. Anyway coach calls time and goes to BU and ask "was there a catch and if so why didn't runners tag"? BU comes to me and coach follows and BU looks at me like "what now?" I ask BU did he have a catch, said yes. Coach says what about runners leaving earlier and I say we had no appeal...

By the OP, everybody in the park knows rthe runners left early.

[pastordoug]

Sorry Rich, that's not true. I am letting you, the reader know that both left. The coach "thought" they did but was not sure....

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by pastordoug

Sorry Rich, that's not true. I am letting you, the reader know that both left. The coach "thought" they did but was not sure....

The it was poorly described.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by pastordoug

I also, will it might be a valid request as suggested by Rich, would still have the coach give his order of appeal because the outcome of the appeal isn't based on what the HC beleives but on what the PU or BU has seen. This could also result in runs counting or not counting.

It appears we all (W'all?) may be wrong:
8.2.2h: Following an inside-the-park home run, the defense appeals that both runners on base and the batter missed third base as they advanced to home.
RULING: This is a legal appeal. The umpire will rule depending on his judgment of the play.

So, multiple appeals can be made at the same time.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by yawetag

It appears we all (W'all?) may be wrong:
8.2.2h: Following an inside-the-park home run, the defense appeals that both runners on base and the batter missed third base as they advanced to home.
RULING: This is a legal appeal. The umpire will rule depending on his judgment of the play.

So, multiple appeals can be made at the same time.

No one said that they can't be...it's in the how.

[biggravy]

After reading this year's clarification to 9-1-1d I'm wondering if that run scores even if the coach does not appeal R3.

"When a third out is declared during a play resulting from a legal defensive appeal, which results in a force out (this out takes precedence if enforcement of it would negate a score)...

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by biggravy

After reading this year's clarification to 9-1-1d I'm wondering if that run scores even if the coach does not appeal R3.

"When a third out is declared during a play resulting from a legal defensive appeal, which results in a force out (this out takes precedence if enforcement of it would negate a score)...

There wasn't any force out in the play at hand.

[biggravy]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

There wasn't any force out in the play at hand.

Help me out then how and when would that rule come into play?

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by biggravy

Help me out then how and when would that rule come into play?

biggravy,

It can only come into play on a missed base appeal when the runner was forced to the base he missed.

A failure to retouch appeal can never be a force out because the BR has been put out on the catch, thereby removing any forces.

JM

[biggravy]

Sorry, I can be incredibly slow sometimes. I'm still wondering if it's incorrect to score this run under FED.

9-1-1 Exception C says "A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows: C. by a preceding runner who is declared out upon appeal because he failed to touch one of the bases or left a base too soon on a caught fly ball."

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by biggravy

Sorry, I can be incredibly slow sometimes. I'm still wondering if it's incorrect to score this run under FED.

9-1-1 Exception C says "A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows: C. by a preceding runner who is declared out upon appeal because he failed to touch one of the bases or left a base too soon on a caught fly ball."

R3 is the PRECEDING runner and he was NOT declared out. A TRAIL runner was the one declared out.

No runner who came AFTER the third-out-runner can score. Those that preceded (came before him) can.