Rule 7.08e reinstated force play

[rbmartin]

I was wanting some clarification regarding the part of rule 7.08e which states "However, if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base he had last occupied, the force play is reinstated, and he can again be put out if the defense tags the base to which he is forced;"

Here is the situation: Runner on first, one out. Batter bunts and beats out the throw to first. R1 rounds 2b. As F3 throws to F6, R1 slides back into 2b but overslides it (unintentionally)(to the 1st base side of 2b). F6 steps on 2b before R1 retouches 2b, but does not tag the runner.
Is the runner out via rule 7.08e?

Thanks

[mbyron]

Yes, though some will want to apply J/R's "relaxed/unrelaxed" distinction here to say that the runner must be tagged.

Here's another play. R1, less than 2 outs. R1 goes with the pitch. Batter flies to deep left. R1 rounds 2B, sees F7 will get to the fly ball in time, and turns around to avoid getting doubled off. He touches 2B as he goes back to 1B, reinstating the force. F7 drops the ball as R1 approaches 1B. As R1 turns around again to head to 2B, F7 throws to F4 covering 2B, who catches it for the force out.

[rbmartin]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Yes, though some will want to apply J/R's "relaxed/unrelaxed" distinction here to say that the runner must be tagged.

Here's another play. R1, less than 2 outs. R1 goes with the pitch. Batter flies to deep left. R1 rounds 2B, sees F7 will get to the fly ball in time, and turns around to avoid getting doubled off. He touches 2B as he goes back to 1B, reinstating the force. F7 drops the ball as R1 approaches 1B. As R1 turns around again to head to 2B, F7 throws to F4 covering 2B, who catches it for the force out.

I agree that the runner in your situation would be out since he obviously "retreated", however, I am not not sure oversliding a base (my situation) constitutes a "retreat".

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

I agree that the runner in your situation would be out since he obviously "retreated", however, I am not not sure oversliding a base (my situation) constitutes a "retreat".

Why wouldn't it?

Consider this: suppose the ball gets away from the fielder on your play, allowing R1 to advance to 3B. If he fails to touch 2B on his way past and the defense appeals correctly, how will you rule on the missed base appeal?

I would call the runner out for the missed base. So I would have no choice but to treat your original play as a "retreat" that reinstates the force.

[TwoBits]

I'm trying to visualize how a runner retreating back to second could possibly overslide towards the first base side. I suppose its possible, but sounds more like a third world play that would never happen.

[SAump]

A tag must be applied.

Here is the situation: Runner on first, one out. Batter bunts and beats out the throw to first. R1 rounds 2b. As F3 throws to F6, R1 slides back into 2b but overslides it (unintentionally)(to the 1st base side of 2b). F6 steps on 2b before R1 retouches 2b, but does not tag the runner.
Is the runner out via rule 7.08e?

B/R occupies 1B. R1 may not return to 1B. If R1 returns immediately to 2B, then a tag must be applied. If R1 makes no attempt to return to 2B, enforce 7.08e.

Ruling: Safe.

[_Bruno_]

Originally Posted by SAump

A tag must be applied.

why ? if he missed 2nd, ok (unrelaxed action). but he touched it, therefore the force should be reinstated...

[Rich Ives]

"Retreat" has the connotatin of a deliberate act. It also has the connotation of going back to a previous base. Therefore, If the runner deliberately headed back to 1B it would be a retreat.

So is an overslide on a return to 2B a retreat toward 1B? Don't think so. 1) The runner would be headed to RF, not 1B, and 2) going to 1B wasn't the intent.

Tag required.

[rbmartin]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

"Retreat" has the connotatin of a deliberate act. It also has the connotation of going back to a previous base. Therefore, If the runner deliberately headed back to 1B it would be a retreat.

So is an overslide on a return to 2B a retreat toward 1B? Don't think so. 1) The runner would be headed to RF, not 1B, and 2) going to 1B wasn't the intent.

Tag required.

Thats the way I would interpret this rule also.

[midtnblu]

[QUOTE=Rich Ives;665717
So is an overslide on a return to 2B a retreat toward 1B? Don't think so. 1) The runner would be headed to RF, not 1B, and 2) going to 1B wasn't the intent.

Tag required.[/QUOTE]

Ok, now F6 turns and throws toward 1st to get the B/R who has rounded bag but throws ball out of play. Where is the "2b" runner at TOT and where do you place him?

This goes along with a thread that went aroud some time ago...if a runner retreats to 3rd and overruns toward LF, can he go directly to 2nd base to avoid a tag or must he touch 3rd again before going to second?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by midtnblu

Ok, now F6 turns and throws toward 1st to get the B/R who has rounded bag but throws ball out of play. Where is the "2b" runner at TOT and where do you place him?

This goes along with a thread that went aroud some time ago...if a runner retreats to 3rd and overruns toward LF, can he go directly to 2nd base to avoid a tag or must he touch 3rd again before going to second?

Where his is is where he is.

The key word in the reinstated force is "retreat". You can't call an overrun proof that there was an attempt at the "next" base (or a retreat).

If an overslide/overrun of 2B in this case means that the runner has attempted go go back to 1B then that would also mean an overslide/overrun of 1B by the batter-runner is proof that he has attempted to go to 2B - thus liable to be put out.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by midtnblu

Ok, now F6 turns and throws toward 1st to get the B/R who has rounded bag but throws ball out of play. Where is the "2b" runner at TOT and where do you place him?

This goes along with a thread that went aroud some time ago...if a runner retreats to 3rd and overruns toward LF, can he go directly to 2nd base to avoid a tag or must he touch 3rd again before going to second?

Sliding beyond a base is not the same as going back (retreating or advancing to a base). If the runner gets up and heads to the next(previous) base, then he has shown effort to go to that next base.

If this type of thing were allowed, then a runner scoring and sliding beyond but missing HP would be considered as heading to the dugout and HP can simply be tagged.

Since that isn't the case, the runner has to show effort to go to the next base in sequence or not trying to get back to the base immediately. I think this is a prime example of what is relaxed/unrelaxed play and how an umpire needs to read the runner and use their judgment.

In the OP, the runner needs to be tagged while off the base to be put out.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Why wouldn't it?

Consider this: suppose the ball gets away from the fielder on your play, allowing R1 to advance to 3B. If he fails to touch 2B on his way past and the defense appeals correctly, how will you rule on the missed base appeal?

I would call the runner out for the missed base. So I would have no choice but to treat your original play as a "retreat" that reinstates the force.

So, what if the runner slides to the LF side of the base? He is still technically beyond 2B isn't he. Thus, the force cannot be reinstated. And, I would not uphold an appeal of the base unless the runner shows an effort to go to another base.

Instead of watching which side he slides on, just watch the runner's actions and let them guide the umpire as to what the runner is trying to do.

If he is trying to retreat to a previous base, then I would uphold the appeal if the runner misses the base when attempting to advance. If he slides or overruns the base and then immediately turns to run to the advance base, I would not uphold an appeal since he showed no effort to retreat to a previous base other than the one he touched(or tried to).