Pick-off at Home

[ccbestul]

Just happened last night. U18 game, FED rules. R1 at third with two out. This kid stole home earlier. Pitcher toes the rubber in stretch. He has not looked in for any signs yet. The runner takes off for home. The pitcher steps toward home and easily throws out the runner. Team wanted Balk called because he did not step off rubber. I contedned it was a pick-off play at home and pitcher properly stepped toward bag. My contention was that the pitcher never began his move to come set, therefore; perfectly legal pick-off. Coach bought that but contended he threw to an unoccupied bag. That was an easy won to debunk. I believe I called this correct. The only Ref. I could find was Casebook 6.1.1 (comment) which says when pitcher assumes a set position. I read that before and thats what I interpreted. The pitcher had made no movement to the set position. Anybody have a similar situation?

[Tim C]

Where was the batter during this play?

[ccbestul]

Was still taking signs fro coach, not ready to bat. Does it matter?

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by ccbestul

Just happened last night. U18 game, FED rules. R1 at third with two out. This kid stole home earlier. Pitcher toes the rubber in stretch. He has not looked in for any signs yet. The runner takes off for home. The pitcher steps toward home and easily throws out the runner. Team wanted Balk called because he did not step off rubber. I contedned it was a pick-off play at home and pitcher properly stepped toward bag. My contention was that the pitcher never began his move to come set, therefore; perfectly legal pick-off. Coach bought that but contended he threw to an unoccupied bag. That was an easy won to debunk. I believe I called this correct. The only Ref. I could find was Casebook 6.1.1 (comment) which says when pitcher assumes a set position. I read that before and thats what I interpreted. The pitcher had made no movement to the set position. Anybody have a similar situation?

As TEE said where was B1? If B1 was in the box ready to hit, then this is a quick pitch and a balk should be called. If F1 did not disengage the pithcer's plate properly, then he is defined as F1 and must comply with the pitching regulations.

There is no pickoff at home as with the other bases because you don't have to worry about the batter on bases 1 thru 3. If the batter is ready to hit, then F1 MUST come set first and then deliver the ball.

This is no different than say R1. F1 wants to keep him close so right from the stretch without coming set he pitches to the batter. This would be a balk because F1 when throwing to the plate MUST come to a complete and discernable stop (FED rule 6-1-3)

In your play I have a balk

Pete Booth

[Tim C]

It makes a huge difference.

If the hitter was in place you would have either a pitch or a quick return pitch which changes your entire play.

[Jerry]

I'm not so sure you and Pete have this one right, Tim. What you both say is true if F1 is in fact "pitching" the ball. But in the scenario given, he's attempting a play on R3. All F1 has to do in that instance is to step directly toward the base . . . in this case "Home Base" . . .(assuming he's still engaged on the rubber)in the attempt to retire R3. "Stopping" before an attempted pick off is not required; only before "pitching".

Of course Pete is correct for FED, but only from the Windup Position . . . because pick-offs are not allowed from the Windup in FED. But not so in OBR.

Let's think/talk this one out a bit before calling it a "quick pitch".

Jerry

[Tim C]

You're going to tell me that a batter can tell the difference between a play and a pitch.

Without disengagement the batter can legally (under all codes) strike at the ball.

There is no such thing as a pick-off at home AND the pitcher must disengage or be open for the ball to be hit.

"Most likely" I would call a quick return pitch and penelize.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by ccbestul
Just happened last night. U18 game, FED rules. R1 at third with two out. This kid stole home earlier. Pitcher toes the rubber in stretch. He has not looked in for any signs yet. The runner takes off for home. The pitcher steps toward home and easily throws out the runner. Team wanted Balk called because he did not step off rubber. I contedned it was a pick-off play at home and pitcher properly stepped toward bag. My contention was that the pitcher never began his move to come set, therefore; perfectly legal pick-off. Coach bought that but contended he threw to an unoccupied bag. That was an easy won to debunk. I believe I called this correct. The only Ref. I could find was Casebook 6.1.1 (comment) which says when pitcher assumes a set position. I read that before and thats what I interpreted. The pitcher had made no movement to the set position. Anybody have a similar situation?

"Set position" in FED means everything from the time the pitcher intentionally contacts the rubber (with one foot, the other in front of the rubber), until he delivers the pitch.

Note the first two sentences of 6-1-3 ("For the set position, the pitcher shall have the ball in either ... hand. His pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back.")

Once the pitcher contacts the rubber, any delivery of the ball toward the plate is a pitch -- it might be legal, illegal, quick, a balk, ... but it's a pitch and not a throw or a pick-off.

In your example, it was both a quick pitch (since the batter wasn't ready) -- which is a balk with a runner, and a balk for not coming to a complete stop.

(Despite committing two balks, runners advance only one base. )

[Jerry]

Whoah, Bob! "At any time during the pitcher's preliminary movements and until his NATURAL PITCHING MOTION COMMITS HIM TO THE PITCH, he may throw to ANY BASE provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw."

And for Tim . . . yes, the batter DOES have to make a determination whether F1's actions are a pitch or a pick-off play. THE SAME WAY THAT THE PU HAS TO MAKE THAT DETERMINATION! (Forgive the capital letters; I'm insistent on allowing the defense to make a legitimate play on an attempted steal.) As long as F1 has not committed himself to pitch (and we all know what that means), he's done nothing wrong. I'll even contend that B1 could be called for interference if he hits the ball!

Back to Bob . . . nothing in any rule book or case book prevents a pitcher from making a pick-off attempt at Home Base. Nor does any rule book or case book exclude Home from the definition of a base.

Have we opened a can of worms here?

Jerry

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Jerry

I'm not so sure you and Pete have this one right, Tim. What you both say is true if F1 is in fact "pitching" the ball. But in the scenario given, he's attempting a play on R3. All F1 has to do in that instance is to step directly toward the base . . . in this case "Home Base" . . .(assuming he's still engaged on the rubber)in the attempt to retire R3. "Stopping" before an attempted pick off is not required; only before "pitching".

Of course Pete is correct for FED, but only from the Windup Position . . . because pick-offs are not allowed from the Windup in FED. But not so in OBR.

Let's think/talk this one out a bit before calling it a "quick pitch".

Jerry,

There are ONLY 2 Pitching positions 1. The Wind-up and 2. The Set position. The stretch position (as was the case in this thread) is a preporatory position but not a PITCHING position. When F1 is on the plate then he considered a pitcher and MUST comply with the pitching regulations. Once F1 threw home while in the stretch it is a balk.


Pete Booth

[Tim C]

I don't need capital letters.

In FED (as the play states) it is a balk. Very simple. Bob has hit it correctly.

BTW, in a private e-mail group we have discussed this play extensively and Bob is probably ready with all the situations necessary.

[Jerry]

Tim,
The capital letters were my venting, not yelling at you, Bob or Pete. I'm sure you've all talked about it extensively and have a lot of back up material to support your position. Bfair (Steve) wrote recently about a J/R interpretation that basically says that any throw to home while the pitcher is on the rubber is to be interpreted as a pitch. I can buy that.
Jerry

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Jerry
Tim,
The capital letters were my venting, not yelling at you, Bob or Pete. I'm sure you've all talked about it extensively and have a lot of back up material to support your position. Bfair (Steve) wrote recently about a J/R interpretation that basically says that any throw to home while the pitcher is on the rubber is to be interpreted as a pitch. I can buy that.
Jerry

While J/R is for OBR application, the same is true for all sets of rules.

I hope this will clear any doubt regarding Fed:

6.1.1 SITUATION D: F1 takes his sign in the (a) windup position or (b) set position. R1 at third attempts to steal home. F1 steps forward off the pitcher's plate and throws to F2.

Ruling: This is a balk in (a) and (b).

Comment: After assuming a windup or set position stance on the plate, the pitcher must step clearly backward off the plate with the pivot foot in order to play on R1 at the plate. (6-1-2, 6-1-3)
{my emphasis]

It seems this Fed caseplay tells us specifically what must be done in order for the pitcher to make a play at the plate on an advancing runner.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[Jerry]

I should do more reading! Of course, my casebooks, rule books, BRD and NAPBL Manuals are all in my car. Nice explanations all around, Steve. Thanks.

But now it brings up the point that Tim's question of whether the batter was in the box or not is totally irrelevant. It's a balk no matter where the batter is; it all has to do with where F1 is. Tim, are you reading this? In all small letters.

Jerry

[Tim C]

hehehehe, that's a good one.