stealing home - balk?

[etbaseball]

David Emerling & others:

The information you provided, in and of itself, does not necessarily result in any violations. No 'balk' in either situation.

Please read 8.01 (b).... "From the 'set' position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot. Before assuming the Set Position, the pitcher M A Y elect to make any natural preliminary motion such as that known as "the stretch."

If a pitcher is determined to be in the 'Set Position,' with his hands together in front of his body he can, if he choses to do so, simply step and pitch the ball. Because you don't see it happening on a regular basis doesn't automatically mean that the pitcher is balking. We've all seen pitchers who (Wind Up Position) toe the rubber with their hands together. Visualize this. A pitcher, with his hands together assumes the 'Set Position' while he engages the rubber. He's not required to get or be given a sign by the catcher. The pitcher may just step and throw the ball.

Remember when you're reading a rule and you see "MAY," it simply means that he/she is not mandated to take such action; it's optional.

[etbaseball]

AN AFTER THOUGHT!

As umpires, most of us do not interpret what we 'see' in the same way. Nor do we explain that which we saw in the same way. I know that when it comes to the subject of 'balks' we vary greatly in our collective views and knowledge (assessment) of what is or is not a balk. No wonder many players, coaches and fans don't understand our position. It's obvious to me that many of us don't either.

I'm sure glad that brain surgery doesn't require any knowledge regarding what is or is not a 'balk.'

[Bfair]

Originally posted by etbaseball


Visualize this. A pitcher, with his hands together assumes the 'Set Position' while he engages the rubber. He's not required to get or be given a sign by the catcher. The pitcher may just step and throw the ball.

Remember when you're reading a rule and you see "MAY," it simply means that he/she is not mandated to take such action; it's optional.

Sorry to burst your bubble, Ed, but no can do.
You seem to have forgotten about the other words of 8.01(b) that state:

Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side; from this position he shall go to his set position as defined in Rule 8.0l(b) without interruption and in one continuous motion.

Engaging the rubber with both hands in the glove to assume the set position is not allowable.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[ccbestul]

etbaseball:
The pitcher is in the wind-up not set position.
A pitcher can assume the set position immediately, he is still required to come to a complete discernible stop. If this happens, he can no longer step toward home for a pick-off if runner at third is stealing home. Which is why, when the pitcher is in the wind-up, he must step off or pitch.

[Jerry]

Hold on a second. In OBR, the pitcher can, from the Windup Position, "step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner." Whether the batter is in the box or not is irrelevant in a scenario where R3 is stealing home and F1 is attempting a pick off play at "Home Base". All that's required is for F1 to step directly to the base and throw. There's absolutely no requirement for F1 to step backward in this scenario. It's a pick-off attempt and nothing else. What's illegal or "balkable" (is that a word?) with that.

BTW . . . it makes no difference what pitching position F1 is in or whether he's on the rubber or not. As long as he makes a proper move/play to retire the advancing runner, he's done everything exactly proper.

Jerry

[Bfair]

Originally posted by David Emerling
With R3, the pitcher is on the pitcher's rubber getting his sign when the runner takes off for home. The pitcher simply throws the ball to the catcher and dispenses with his usual windup. Is this a balk? Is this a pitch?

Again, R3 steals home. But *this* time the pitcher has just begun his windup. Seeing the runner stealing, the pitcher noticeably hastens his windup and delivers the ball. Is this a balk?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

J/R says it's a pitch:

J/R states:

The windup and the set (or "stretch") are the two legal positions a pitcher can take when preparing to throw a pitch. A pitch [original emphasis]has occurred when a pitcher takes one of these positions, begins a motion to pitch, and legally steps and throws the ball toward home plate while still in-contact with the pitching rubber [my emphasis]. Either position may be used on any given pitch.

For the pitcher not to deliver a pitch to the plate, he must legally disengage the rubber.
If he throws from the rubber, the throw is a pitch.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[Jerry]

For the pitcher not to deliver a pitch to the plate, he must legally disengage the rubber. If he throws from the rubber, the throw is a pitch.

Steve,
Are those your words above, or J/R's? I'll go along with J/R's "Begins a motion to pitch" line that you cited, and call a balk if I judge that F1 has performed a "natural pitching motion (which) commits him to the pitch." I've got no reason to argue against the above interpretation either . . . if those are J's and R's exact words. Otherwise, I still have an attempted play on R3. Let me know what you've got.

Jerry

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Jerry
For the pitcher not to deliver a pitch to the plate, he must legally disengage the rubber. If he throws from the rubber, the throw is a pitch.

Steve,
Are those your words above, or J/R's? I'll go along with J/R's "Begins a motion to pitch" line that you cited, and call a balk if I judge that F1 has performed a "natural pitching motion (which) commits him to the pitch." I've got no reason to argue against the above interpretation either . . . if those are J's and R's exact words. Otherwise, I still have an attempted play on R3. Let me know what you've got.

Jerry

I indented J/R's words and not mine.
My words are my summary of J/R's verbage.

While on the rubber, any action of beginning a throw to the plate is a pitch, Jerry. The pitcher need not use the same motion everytime---he may vary his motions as long as all his motions are legal. Therefore, at some point, he uses a new motion for the first time. In this case, his throwing action from the rubber is, indeed, nothing more than another pitching motion---legal or illegal (balk). It's merely the first time he's used this pitching motion.

So, let's assume the runner was not advancing, and the pitcher made the same action:

1. Would you consider it a pitch?
   
2. Would you consider it a quick pitch if the batter was not ready?
   
3. Or would you consider it a play (since R3 is standing on 3rd picking his nose)?

Jerry, my guess is that considering it a play would be your last choice.

As long as it is an effort to deliver the ball to the plate from the pitching plate, then you need to consider it a pitch. All in all it's rather simplistic---if a pitcher delivers to home plate from the pitching rubber, it is a pitch. F1 needs to know he must disengage the rubber in order to make a play to the plate.

(Hmmmm....that seems to closely correlate with the Fed caseplay)!!!!


Just my opinion,

Freix

[Jerry]

Steve,
After reviewing J/R and the FED Casebook, I'm in full agreement we have a pitch . . . and a balk in this scenario because F1 failed to stop before delivering the pitch.

If R3 was not running however, you asked what I'd call:

Would you consider it a pitch? YES; and a Balk if the Batter was in the box.

Would you consider it a quick pitch if the batter was not ready? NO; If R3 was not running and the batter is not in the box, I'd call "NO PITCH", as soon as F1 made a motion to either come Set or throw Home. A "do over".

Or would you consider it a play (since R3 is standing on 3rd picking his nose)? Definately not a play, but then F1 wouldn't be doing that if R3 was just standing on 3rd.

Jerry

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Jerry


Would you consider it a quick pitch if the batter was not ready? NO; If R3 was not running and the batter is not in the box, I'd call "NO PITCH", as soon as F1 made a motion to either come Set or throw Home. A "do over".

No fair, Jerry, the original action of the pitcher included delivering the ball to the plate.

Why not just use your pre-emptive timeout for all situations and save the headaches..................LOL


Freix

[Jerry]

Steve:

Peace, my brother!

If a tree falls in the forest . . . or if a ball is thrown from the mound . . . and there's no one around to see it, swing at it, or trying to steal home . . . is it?

LOL at myself.

Jerry