stealing home - balk?

[David Emerling]

With R3, the pitcher is on the pitcher's rubber getting his sign when the runner takes off for home. The pitcher simply throws the ball to the catcher and dispenses with his usual windup. Is this a balk? Is this a pitch?

Again, R3 steals home. But *this* time the pitcher has just begun his windup. Seeing the runner stealing, the pitcher noticeably hastens his windup and delivers the ball. Is this a balk?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Whowefoolin]

BALK, and.......BALK

[ccbestul]

Situation 1: Obvious Balk.
Situation 2: Depends, is pitcher winding or stretching?
If he is winding, He is continuing his pitch. If he proceeds with pitch properly but just speeds up the mechanics, how can this be a balk?

[Rich Ives]

Just curious but here's what the rules say

8.01(a) Windup

From this position he may:

(1) deliver the ball to the batter, or
(2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner, or
(3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides).

8.01(b) Set

From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot.

AND

At any time during the pitcher's preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw.

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when_

a) The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery;


= = = =

Sit 1:

What has he violated if he is in the "pre-set" position? As he hasn't come set, he hasn't started the pitch thus doesn't the "at any time during the preliminanry . . " part apply?

Balk if in windup I think tough.


Sit 2:

So he speeded his delivery - so what? Play on.

[jicecone]

As posted , the pitcher was in the windup position for both situations, therefore:

Situation 1.

Balk

Situation 2.

Once the pitcher has begun his windup, there is no rule that states the speed at which the pitcher shall execute his delivery of the pitch to the plate.

NO Balk

[ccbestul]

I have yet to figure out how a pitcher in a wind-up can step towards a base and not initiate the pitch!!! 8.05(a) will always preclude this situation????

Sit 1: If taking signs he has both feet on rubber. 8.05(a) applies.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by jicecone
As posted , the pitcher was in the windup position for both situations, therefore:

Situation 1.

Balk

Why?

I agree that the pitcher *could* have done something that was a balk, but I don't read in the post that he *did* any of those things.

As described, I think both plays are legal.

[jicecone]

How about that which was stated,

"The pitcher simply throws the ball to the catcher and dispenses with his usual windup."

So in other words the pitcher does not have to windup? He can just rear back and throw the ball to the catcher without disingageing the plate. Mabey Im missing something here, but Im commenting upon only what was written.

Please explain?

[ccbestul]

Fed: rules restrict the pitcher to pitch or step off(6.1.2)
Obr:8.05a, While taking signs from the catcher, how can any movement of the non-pivot not violate this rule? These two rules seem in conflict. (8.01a2 and 8.05a) Are there any case book situations?

[insatty]

Here is how I analyze these, which I believe ends up with the correct result even if for the wrong reasons:

In situation 1, if the pitcher doesn't disengage properly, then his throw to the plate while engaged is a quick pitch, which is a balk with runners on.

In situation 2, no balk because pitcher continues his delivery without interruption.

In both situations, watch for catcher leaving his box before ball leaves pitcher's hand, which is also a balk.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by insatty

In situation 1, if the pitcher doesn't disengage properly, then his throw to the plate while engaged is a quick pitch, which is a balk with runners on.

In order to qualify as a quick pitch, doesn't the batter have to be "not ready?"

So, let me complicate it for you:

Let's say that the pitcher toes the rubber as if he intends to pitch off the stretch. The batter steps into the batter's box and READIES himself. The pitcher gets the sign and is holding the ball behind his back. Then, all of a sudden, R3 takes off for home. The pitcher, startled, just whips the ball to the catcher.

What do we have?

The batter was ready. So can it really be considered a quick pitch?

Is this a legal delivery? If not - then it's a balk. Correct?

[jicecone]

"The pitcher gets the sign and is holding the ball behind his back."

Now it sounds like the pitcher is in the Set Position. OK
Prior to delivering the ball to the batter, the pitcher must come to a Set Position and come to a complete stop. OBR

Again it sounds like a balk to me.

For the record Dave, was the pitcher in a windup or set position? Or are we creating different scenarios.

[Bfair]

The question deals moreso in whether the pitcher is required to take a "rocker step" as part of his delivery to the plate, and whether he is required to "join hands" and "windup" in his motion.

We know in Fed that is not true.
Fed specifically states:

During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot.

They specifically allow delivery with only a step forward to the plate. No rocker step is required.
Additionally, you'll not find any requirement stating that his hands must join in the windup position.

---

OTH, OBR states:

He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.

Now, while they state "he may", does that mean he must?
I don't think so, and neither does J/R.
I've not found the question specifically addressed by other sources.

J/R states:

[Windup Mode]

B. Terminal Stage (Motion to Pitch)

In the motion to pitch, the pitcher's free foot

(a) may (but not must) step once backward, and
(b) must step once forward.
Neither step may be lateral (toward first or third base).

Since the pitcher must take one step forward and is not required to take a step backward, then the "rocker step" is not required. It would be interpreted the same as Fed. Still, he must legally step to where he is throwing (delivering the pitch).

J/R also adds:

The position of the hands may be apart or joined. Joining the hands is not required before the motion to pitch, nor does joining the hands after taking the position necessarily mean the pitcher has begun his motion to pitch.

Based on J/R (the only AO I found to specifically address these questions), neither action of the pitcher posed in the original question would be a balk.

Additionally, there is nothing that says the pitcher must use the same motion for each pitch. Hastening his motion to the plate should not be considered illegal provided he has met all other pitching requirements. Still, the batter must be ready when the pitch is delivered or a quick pitch could be called.

Both are legal pitches.



Just my opinion,

Freix

[Bfair]

Originally posted by jicecone
"The pitcher gets the sign and is holding the ball behind his back."

Now it sounds like the pitcher is in the Set Position. OK
Prior to delivering the ball to the batter, the pitcher must come to a Set Position and come to a complete stop. OBR

Again it sounds like a balk to me.

For the record Dave, was the pitcher in a windup or set position? Or are we creating different scenarios.

The feet determine whether a pitcher is in the set or windup position---not the hands.

In the set, the pitcher must come to a complete stop with both hands on the ball in front of his body. That requirement of meeting hands is nowhere to be found for the windup, therefore, it would not be a balk if he did not do it.

Anyway, based on past logic posted, since joining the hands in the windup is not listed as a balk wouldn't it just be a "don't do that" if , indeed, it was a requirement?
Why would it be a balk?
(I pose that to those who always refer to 8.05 as the listings for the only balks that could be called).


Just my opinion,

Freix

[jicecone]

Open mouth, put foot in.

The first thing I did when I got home was to read the book, and lo and behold I couldn't have been more wrong.

Your right Freix, from the windup position it would not have been a balk. However from the second scennario presented, " pitcher toes the rubber as if he intends to pitch off the stretch", if considered the Set Position, the pitcher would (must) come to a complete stop before delivering the pitch.