Fence

[robert]

I was doing a game yesterday and I was BU. Along the first base side of the infield there is a 7 foot fence. Batter hits a high foul ball f3 is going over and runnig out of room. The top of the fence has become disconnectd from the top rail so he could eaisly reach his hand through the top of the fence. This has been tried many times but this time the fielder acutally caught the ball in his bare hand. As he was pulling his hand back through the fence squeezd the ball out of his hand. I ruled that the catch was not made since F3 did not mean for the ball to come out. I couldn't find any reference in the OBR.
By the way I ejected the F3 and one of the coaches for calling me a Dumbass redneck.

[Gee]

See OBR #2, Catch. .....Release must be voluntary and intentional....... G.

[BJ Moose]

Bob, I think that was a good call. Just a foul ball.

Makes me wonder if it is even a legal catch if he pulls it through.. probably. You can reach over a fence, but can you legally reach THROUGH?

I gotta admit, I've never been called a "redneck" for making a foul ball, no catch call.

Sounds like you shouldn't wear your SKOAL cap and cowboy boots while umpiring, though.

[greymule]

I don't know whether a player can reach through a fence to catch a ball, but if he can, I wouldn't have disallowed the catch if he showed me he was holding the ball securely, even if it was on the other side of the fence. I wouldn't make him bring the ball back through the opening.

Hey, imagine what would have happened if the coach had used a slur that commonly applied to someone other than a Southern white man.

[robert]

Well the redneck thing came up because he is from New York and I have a VERY slight southern accent. Also my number is 33 because my favorite major league umpire is Durwood and he is kindda "redneckish". I knew that the release had to be voulantary, but I was just wondering if reaching through a fence was legal.

[Tim C]

How on earth could you make that ruling?

There would HAVE to be voluntary release to get the ball back into the field of play.

The player could reach over with his other hand and capture the ball.

The player could flip the ball back towards non-DBT and try to re-catch the ball.

The ONLY thing a player could not do is make the catch without a voluntary release.

I think we have a problem Houston.

[greymule]

Tim C: If it is legal to catch a ball by sticking your arm through a fence, then the fielder could make the catch with his bare hand, hold the ball on the other side of the fence, and say to me, "Look Mr. Ump, I have the ball securely in my hand." He could now try to do any of those things you mentioned, but if instead he said, "I will now try to pull the ball back through the opening I put my arm through" and in doing so drops the ball, I say it's still a catch. To me, the question would be whether, if the ball drops into DBT, you give the runners one base from where they were when the ball fell into DBT, or two bases from the last base touched at the time of the "throw."

I know that release has to be voluntary and no "time of possession" is involved, but there's a point at which the play is over. Center fielder catches a fly ball for the third out. Runs 40 steps in with the ball in his glove. Accidently drops--involuntarily releases--the ball as he passes the mound. Nothing wrong in Houston. That's still a catch.

[Tim C]

JUST KIDDING, big time.

Your example is well taken BUT to catch the ball the player had to "leave" the field. If you leave the field you would have to bring the ball back with you (i.e. Jeter, 3rd base crowd, World Series).

If you can't manage to bring the ball back you can't get the out. EVEN if it is in clear view of 18 TV cameras.

IF you allow your ruling then we have expanded the field of play.

I'll give you the "closet" example I can:

Gerald Williams playing left field for Atlanta a few years ago.

He caught a fair ball as he crossed the foul line. he ran several steps and bumped into the right field stands.

It trying to catch himself he reached out with his glove hand, Yep, the ball popped out over the fence.

Umpires ruled a Rule Book Double.

I KNOW this isn't the play but I am trying to refute your "drop the ball on the mound play".

Sorry to waste time on a total TWP and I'll leave for now. Off to JEA to see if they have a reference.

[Gee]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tim C

Gerald Williams playing left field for Atlanta a few years ago.
He caught a fair ball as he crossed the foul line. he ran several steps and bumped into the right field stands.
It trying to catch himself he reached out with his glove hand, Yep, the ball popped out over the fence.

Umpires ruled a Rule Book Double.
---------------------------------------------------
TC,
Your play is a simple book rule two base award but i know big dogs don't like to call book rules.

How about if the fielder caught the ball, in live ball territory, in front of the gate that was accidently left open.

He ran down the ramp and then came to a stop with you close in pursuit. He then turned around and took a few steps toward the playing field and dropped the ball.

What have you got with no base runners? I hope you got an out but just in case you don't, I have. G.

[Tim C]

I am sorry George I re-read your statement so I needed to edit this.

Ball was caught inside the field of play. OK

Then was carried to DBT. OK

No runners on so no worries there. OK

The umpire is with the fielder and sees that he has possesion. OK

Now we know there are NO limits on how LONG a fielder has to hold a ball, right? OK

So as the fielder heads back towards the field, still in DBT, he drops the ball. OK

I see no difference here then when an outfielder catches a normal fly ball (piece of cake play) for the third out. As he runs towards the infield there is a "time" when the umpires decreee that he has "secured" possession.

Even if this player drops the ball the out will be rewarded. OK.

Being in DBT makes no difference IF the ball was caught in the field of play. So under your play I have an "OUT!"

Under this other play I have a foul ball and no catch.

Last third world play I will ever enter into discussion about . . .

[Edited by Tim C on Jul 31st, 2002 at 08:02 PM]

[Gee]

Sorry to bother you. G.

[Tim C]

I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

We just don't agree.