Dugout decorum

[johnston]

The 2002 HS Rules Book, p.69, describes Dugout Decorum as a point of emphasis. This needs special attention. I don't see this rule enforced my any umpire in Utah. Last week I observed a whole team sitting in front of the cyclone fence protecting the dugout. Coaches on a regular basis sit on ball buckets outside the dugout.
The rule is in place to protect players and coaches. If it isn't inforced, I can picture heated arguments, injuries and law suits. If a ball hits the bucket outside, is the runner awarded an extra base? Is this interference on the part of the offensive team? It seems like this could be argued.
In reality this should never happen. As rule 3-3 states players and coaches should be in the dugout. All equipment should also be off of the playing field and not sitting in front of the dugout (or anywhere on the playing field).
As an umpire am I vulnerable to a law suit if a player or coach gets hit in the head as they sit outside the dugout on a plastic bucket? I am in charge of the game and responsible for enforcement of the rules. Does my insurance pay for the third baseman's broken leg when he trips over the coach's bucket (chair)sitting on the playing field?
I'd like to see this rule enforced to the letter. It's more important than requiring a helmet for a player wrming up a pitcher.
I don't want lawyers to become rich at the expence of baseball. Of more importance, I don't want any player injured because as umpires we ignore an important rule!

Bill Johnston

[Boone]

Some guys think its nitpicky, others don't.

If you don't want buckets on the field have them put them away.

Coaches are starting to take advantage of our kind, gentle nature...all of a sudden we have 4 coaches, a scorekeeper and the team mom all out on their buckets.

But i've seen this summer the umpires reversing the allowance of the buckets. If it is a crappy no-nothing game, let em have em (and no its not interference, don't open that bag of worms). But in big tournaments or fields with not a lot of foul ground, I'm not allowing them. (One coach was bummed cause his dad had fashioned big orange cushions for the buckets).

If I'm feeling generous during the pregame I'll allow the buckets as long as they are NEVER left unattended while ball is play. During a Junior Legion tourney a team from Edmonds kept abandoning their buckets. After a couple warnings went unheeded, I banned their buckets. Well the freaking assistant coach gets himself tossed over it!

[bluezebra]

I think buckets are issued to coaches along with their uniforms. I never allowed anyone outside the dugout who didn't belong there. No buckets on the field. Keep them inside the dugouts.

An injury caused by someone running into a bucket in the playing field which you allowed to be there, could be considered negligence on your part for not enforcing the rules, you may not be covered by your insurance. And, you'll certainly be sued.

Keep 'em in the dugouts and you'll avoid problems. "Coach, I don't care what was allowed in your other games. Today you stay in the dugout. Or leave".

Bob

[BJ Moose]

Sounds like a case of Bucket Envy. You know, there is medication for that anal-retentive complex. Oooooo...

Originally posted by Boone
If I'm feeling generous during the pregame I'll allow the buckets as long as they are NEVER left unattended while ball is play. After a couple warnings went unheeded, I banned their buckets.

[robert]

If it is a coach I don't like I wil ALWAYS tell them to get into the dugout. Lots of times, especially if it is a slow game, I'll tell them to get into the dugout. Most of the time I'll always tell them to get in the dugout, though.

[Steve Emerson]

I have always gone by the old standard, players inside except for on-deck batter and he will have on a helmet, coaches are fair game. If they want to be outside and I mean only the adult coaches, no more than three, they are taking their own chances. If it is a field that has an area designated as dead ball so that coaches from both teams can sit outside they had better stay inside that area. If it does not have a designated area, "Coach you had better be able to get out of the way of the ball or any fielder who may need to get there or we are going to have interference. So far it's working.

[Whowefoolin]

Bluzebra...no umpire is getting sued because of what is done on the field. Stop that talk. I really don't like umps who say they can't do a game for free "because of insurance reasons?"

Stop. If a kid gets hurt by an area that you made fair instead of dead, will I get sued?

Stop.

[bluezebra]

Whowefoolin:

You're fooling yourself. Where have you been, on Mars? Don't you read the papers and sports magazines? Sports officials are constantly being sued for what happens on the field. A few years ago, an umpire was sued by the catcher in a men's softball game because the ump wouldn't give him his mask on a play at the plate. The ump lost, mainly because a scab MLB ump told the court he must give up the mask if asked. And that's the ump's personal equipment.

Officials in ALL sports are being sued. Do you think we're exempt for some miraculous reason? Get real.

There's no problem with working a game for free. The insurance carrier may not cover you if it's a non-sanctioned or scheduled game. Such as umping a game that was forfeited because of a lack of players.

"Stop. If a kid gets hurt by an area that you made fair instead of dead, will I get sued?"

Why would YOU get sued for my goof? And, I've got more sense than to make DBT fair, or even playable. Maybe you don't. Anyone who does that is stupid, and deserves to be sued if someone is injured.

Join the real world. This is a litigous society we live in. You may get sued for something you had no control over. I hope you have enough money to hire lawyers, because with your attitude, your insurance carrier will drop you like a hot coal.

Bob



[Edited by bluezebra on Jul 27th, 2002 at 01:09 AM]

[robert]

Nice reply Bluezebra. Safety is first, and officals do get sued all the time.

[jumpmaster]

My association addressed the bucket issue in this way.

During the talk at the plate, after we exhange lineups and ground rules, we address sportsmanship, jewelry, and buckets. The most common pitch I have heard is "Coach, keep everyone inside the dugout except one on-deck batter. Coach, I don't have a problem with you being on your bucket. But, if you or your bucket gets tied up with a ball, you are not going to like my call."

We only had one time this year that we had to deal with this and it was in my game. R1, Texas league single into right field, F9 comes in and makes a MLB catch and fires a shot to F3 to pick off R1. The throw goes high and wide and hits a gaggle of players standing outside the dugout. If they had not been standing there, the ball would have gone into DBT. Instead of killing it, I let the play continue and the catcher plays the rebound and throws R1 out at 2nd. Coach comes out to argue, I remind of him of our conversation before the game, he goes back to the dugout and makes everyone get inside, even his assistant.

LOL!

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by bluezebra
Whowefoolin:

You're fooling yourself. Where have you been, on Mars? Don't you read the papers and sports magazines? Sports officials are constantly being sued for what happens on the field. A few years ago, an umpire was sued by the catcher in a men's softball game because the ump wouldn't give him his mask on a play at the plate. The ump lost, mainly because a scab MLB ump told the court he must give up the mask if asked. And that's the ump's personal equipment.

Officials in ALL sports are being sued. Do you think we're exempt for some miraculous reason? Get real.

[Edited by bluezebra on Jul 27th, 2002 at 01:09 AM]

Add the threat of lawsuits to your baseball myth list. It should be right up there with hands are part of the bat.

A couple of years ago, one of the boards was having a huge flame war with regards to lawsuits. (I think it was eteamz but I am not sure). Anyway, a lawyer-umpire did some research on sports officials and lawsuits. While there were some officials that were sued, what was surprising about his research was how few suits that officials lost. As I recall, the only major case that was lost by an official was in England of all places. I think that it involved a rugby game.

I don't recall a baseball umpire losing a single case in his list of lawsuits. I don't recall a single case against a baseball umpire even making it to trial in the US. And I am sure that the case that you mention regarding the mask was not on the list. It sounds more like a myth that insurance agents use to scare clients than it does an actual event. Please provide a reference.

Does anyone remember this list and if so could you pull it up and republish it?

Peter

[Tim C]

As near as I can recall we would have to reference the WSU game when Christensen intentionally threw at and hit the on deck batter.

When this case was finally filed it included the umpires as respondants under the consideration that they did not provide their "professionally trained skills" to keep the on-deck batter away from home plate.

Now I do agree (since this referenced case did not ever make it to court) that "few" umpire stories of getting sued ever are "real" in the sense of getting taken to court.

I also get frustrated when threads turn to "safety first" because I NEVER have worked a LL game and 95% of the games worked during my career were by college aged players or older where THEY have a responsibility different than 11 year olds.

I stand with HHH on this one.

[GarthB]

"Anyway, a lawyer-umpire did some research on sports officials and lawsuits..."

Peter:

I believe I read a post some time back by Dave Hensley that puported to have some facts and figures regarding the truth of umpire law suits. You might start there.

We currently have a suit filed in Spokane in which a player, two coaches, two umpires and the umpire association are all named as defendants. This suit has been going on for two years so far. I am keeping an eye on it to see if it ever makes it to a court room.

A player (F6) got spiked making the first half of a DP at second. The wound was deep and serious. The player suffered permanent damage to his leg and is on partial disability with the state.

The suit claims it was an illegal slide and that the player making the slide and his coaches are responsible for the act and the umpires and their association are responsible for not preventing the act. That claim is apparently based on the lack of mention of illegal slides during the plate conference.

Our insurance carrier is making settlement noises against our wishes, but they have that right. I'll keep you posted.

GB

[Boone]

what other things don't we mention in the pregame, pitchers beaning batters, fielders running into walls, foul balls being hit into open dugouts.

Man! the pregame will be longer than the game.

GB do keep us informed.