Earrings and a ponytail.
 

Nothing better than an umpire trainer with two earrings and a ponytail.

YouTube - Umpire Training 2007

I love how he asks for F6 or F4 to "Show me the ball" on a steal attempt.

Bizarro.

Are you concerned at all with what he's teaching these young umpires, or are you just bigoted against anyone that differs from your appearance?


Tim.

An umpire with a ponytail and or one or more earrings looks even dumber than any other guy with the same appearance. that is the first thing he is teaching young umpires-it is ok to look like a goof on the field. It is exact opposite of what young umpires need to learn first. Young umpires who look like they are supposed to look have taken a giant step. Young umpires taught by this goof have taken a step backwards.

PS That is why I got rid of my long hair over 20 years ago, I realized how stupid I looked.

And why are their feet coming together for calls? Odd.

Ponytail? Really?

I noticed that too. On safe calls their arms went out and feet came together. Looks really funny.

The ponytail and earrings don't look very professional, nor do the watches the instructors are wearing while in uniform. I realize they may need to wear them since they're running a clinic, but I can't stand it when partner wears a watch on the field.

I knew something was weird...The feet! You nailed it.

I had a partner that I worked with for a long time(very good umpire) He was in a hurry one day and forgot his watch. The first batter let go of his bat on a back swing and broke his $250 watch.

One of the best umpires I've ever known, or you would ever want to know, and would love to be able to assist him by carrying his mask to the plate meeting, wore a long redheaded ponytail and a Fu Manchu. He would likely kick your a$s if you talked that way to his face about his ponytail.

Sorry, I wouldn't call an umpire who doesn't care about maintaining a professional appearance one of the best I've ever known. It takes the whole package to the be the best.

Hmmm,
 

Two points:

1) At least they are getting training. We run into local group after local group that get ZERO training.

2) With a ponytail and earrings you would not even smell a playoff assignment in Portland (one of the most liberal towns in America).

Here, in one of the most conservative towns in America, the assignment secretary runs the show, and assigns the people he wants to. The umpire with the ponytail was a CIF finals umpire nearly every year for 25+ years. Being a damn good umpire counts for something, and his hair style was never a consideration, just his talent. Of course, he never wore earrings either.:cool:

You've never lived in the Midwest, have you?

I'm going to tell you a little story. It's little, so you can understand.

I just received word that I am going to be a 1SG (you want a translation, let me know) of a headquarters company (BTW, not to toot a horn, but I'm 29 years old.) I keep seven piercings and three visible tattoos. The tattoos are in reg. The piercings stay, due to my job, and I have an exception to policy (for you Catholics, a dispensation) to have them.

This is not an issue for my association. I have never had anyone involved in the game, besides an umpire or assignor, ask me about them. I have had, on exactly one occasion, had a manager say that he would not have recognized me but for the tatt on my right arm, and he didn't care.

I can guaran-damn-tee you that whatever needle has entered my skin has not affected my ability to umpire, and since Big Army has blessed off on them, I'm pretty sure it's not a detriment.

The fact that he said that is it rather obvious he has not.

Peace

I guess you missed the sarcasm.

I think it is great to acknowledge the fact that at least he is training or trying to train people in point one.

However, I think it is chicksh$t that your group will let him work during the season but will not consider this person for the playoffs. If his appearance is not appropriate for playoffs then it is not appropriate for regular season either. In other words, he can do the "dirty work" (regular season) for your group with that appearance, but he cannot do the "plush assignment" with that appearance.

If your group comes right out and tells everyone (verbally and in writing) that they can work regular season with a non-uniform or unacceptable personal (and list what is unacceptable) appearance but it will automatically eliminate them from any playoffs, then at least your group is being honest and each individual can decide how they want to handle this.

In our area, we cannot afford to be picky during the regular season and must regularly assign poor umpires to varsity games. Everyone concerned feels that it's usually better to have 2 umpires on a varsity game, even if the second is poor, rather than just 1.

The playoffs are a different story. Since there are far fewer games, it is possible to be more selective, based on experience, skill, appearance, etc.

I suspect that our area is not unique in this regard.

It would be a strange arse world if we dressed the same , thought the same and lived according to jwwashburn.

First it was Canadians and then pony tales, what next Mr Perfect.

I was raised that ALL men are created equal in this country, one of the rights that many have died to perserve. But for some reason those who choose to be bigots forget those facts to enable them to spread their hatred among us.

"Let he, who is without sin cast the first stone" Obviously something you have never learned.

This used to be a good forum until the likes of you and "lets find something wrong with someone" threads appeared.

Grow up!

If you can't find anything good to say about someone, then shut your mouth.

Please do most of us a favor.

If this gets this thread removed then I have suceeded.

Matt,

1) Thank you for your service to our country.
2) What does the Army changing its policy on body piercing have to do with how an umpire should look?
3) I never said or thought that an umpire that comes to the field looking like a goof will umpire like a goof. Long hair(like I said, I used to have it 20+ years ago) and earrings make and umpire look like a goof. I certainly realize that some people will disagree with me. I think that one umpire wearing a red shirt and one wearing a navy one looks goofy-some people disagree and think that it looks ok. Obviously, somebody involved with the MLB thinks the smocks look good...I think they make the umpires look like goofs.

If you are confident that your look is a good one for an umpire then why would you care what I think?

The Canadian thread was obviously in jest, eh. If you had read it you would have seen that others were much harder on the hosers I was. In fact, I readily admit that the moron in question is not necessarily a Canadian.

This has nothing to do with sin. I never said it was a sin to umpire looking like a goof. I never said nor do I think everyone should look like me. I am a bald guy so, a lot would balk at looking like me. I do think it is a bad idea to train young umpires and not give them the very important fact that looking like a goof is not a good idea-ESPECIALLY for a young umpire.

First impressions have a lot to do with a game. When I show up at my plate conference with my partner(s), I want both teams to see my crisp and clean shirt, my shiny shoes, my clean hat, no stubble, etc. I want them to think that I look the part before they see that I know what I am doing. I want them to immediately realize I am in charge before I ever say anything. I think if I showed up looking like a goof, that would be a lot harder to do.

So, it's exactly as I thought. It's not about his competence or skill, your opinion of him is based on his personal appearance. His uniform looks sharp, and he has a commanding presence. I think it's great that he doesn't feel the need to conform to your bigoted standards. If I had to guess, I'd think that he takes the earrings out during games for safety reasons, so that just leaves you with his hair style to complain about.

Tim.

The way the video is chopped up, it is hard to tell what he is training them to do.

One thing that he is training them, however, is that personal appearance is not important for an umpire. Young umpires need to be shown that first impressions are very important.

I do not think that an umpire should have regular hair and no earrings because of my personal preference. I think this because it is a more professional look.

My mailman has a ponytail and several earrings. He brings me my mail. The guy at the hardware store has the same appearance. Lots of guys at my gun club have all sorts of interesting piercings and hair. It is not the look that i would choose not is my look the one that they prefer...we have a great time.

If you have a job where you need to command respect instantly, then don't look like a goof and it will help a lot.

Would a man with a comb over or an afro fail to meet your standards?


Tim.

I love it when people who disagree because I have an opinion pretned that they have no opinions.

I think that Combovers would be great for anyone-especially an umpire.http://www.blog.joelx.com/wp-content...-comb-over.gif

Afros? Sure, why not? http://www.faniq.com/images/blog/image1.jpg

The truth is that you have standards that a lot of umpires think are silly. You probably shine your shoes, right? We all know that there are thousands that do not. You wear your shin guards inside your pants, right? How many chuckleheads do not do that? How many around North America wear shorts? Dirty, sweat stained hats? No matter what standards that you have for appearance, there are some out there who would disagree with you just as there are some that disagree with my opinion that long hair and earrings are bad ideas for an umpire.

Is that Oscar Gamble?

Yessireeebob!

Where would this umpire wear his hat?
 

http://www.blog.menshaircaretips.com...hawk-50913.jpg

If any of you guys are Photoshop experts maybe you could put a beanie on him.

Just because you think a line ought to be drawn somewhere doesn't mean you're a bigot. Do you really want to work with a partner who sports a bone in his nose?

Wow!
 

Such as things are larger groups we need "warm bodies" for the regular season. In 2009, for the first time in over 20 years, we filled all games with the proper number of umpires:

Probably a factor of the poor Oregon economy. In fact, some officiating groups in Oregon have "frozen" their membership and are not accepting new officials for 2009-2010 season.

We have talked for the last decade on this site about how umpires should "look". An important part of umpiring "appears" to be a first impression.

In Portland about 10 years ago we had a very good umpire that was NEVER getting playoff games. He went ot the assignor and asked, "why don't I get playoff games?"

Commish answered: "You have a beard and a ponytail . . . lose the tail and you'll move up."

Within three years this umpire worked a State Championship Final.

He was smart enough to select his battles correctly.

If I were King and assigned umpires I would be understanding of body art but strict to a sense on items such as ponytails.

I have the "right" to have my own opinions.

Yes, I've lived in KC, Illinois, and 10 years in Texas, but we're a big Republican stronghold in a sea of liberalism which is California. We are a military city and damn proud of them.

Shows how little you really know, I guess. You presume way too many things.

Tim, well said!

Are you sure? ;)

Peace

Now who is getting all huffy and puffy?

Honestly I have been to your town and it is nothing like many little towns in the Midwest. Not even close when it comes to conservatism and attitudes about differences. Then again, you have a right to your opinion. It does not change my position and the reality of the situation. ;)

Peace

Joe and Tim C:

So I suppose this guy wouldn't live up to your standards either, huh?

http://www.photoethnography.com/blog/images/jesus.jpg

Looks can be very deceiving. Don't judge a book by it's cover.

I've been to many little hick towns in the midwest, and conservatives are conservatives, regardless of their surroundings. And the reality is that San Diego is one of the biggest military cities in the United States, which makes it mighty conservative by default.

Tim , you are absolutly right about your opinion, and I believe that body art is just as much a distraction as a pony tail but, as you said we are both entitled to those opinions.

The point here is, just as we perceive the ability of an official by their appearance (and it definitely happens), we perceive others by what they say and do.

"Goof, dumb, idiot, moron, critical of every one," well my peception of that person is a someone that feels as though riducule of others is necessary for them to be noticed. Someone looking for attention at the expense of others. Someone that thinks with their mouth rather than their brain when out on the field, A hothead, a cowboy. My perceptions may be totally wrong but, as we agree, I am entitled to them.

Given my choice , I probably rather work with the pony tailed official.

And the fact that he doesn't get the bible reference, just reinforces my perception of him.

Am I being critical of him, yep but, I have a right to my opinion.

Oh good grief. Oh GOOD GRIEF.

First of all, we do know that Christ had a beard. We do not know whether he had long hair although there are indications that he did because there are indications that it was common then. It is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

The issue at hand is what is the proper appearance for an umpire. Some of us think that earrings and a ponytail are improper.

Most all of us think that sweat stained, nasty looking hats are improper. There are a LOT of umpires out there who think that sweat stained hats and wrinkled pants look just fine.

My guess is that most people here disagree with me on gray ball bags-i like them doggone it and I know that I am in the minority of people that actually consider such things.

I would like to know where my mohawk guy that I posted would wear his hat, though.

I know a lot of people in the military and they are not always that conservative. That being said I am sure you are right to some extent, but to say it is the most conservative when people in many parts of the Midwest never see anyone but them in a diversity way, I would challenge your claim on so many fronts. That all being said, wearing a ponytail for a local league is not the same as working a full college schedule as an umpire. The standards are not quite the same and I am sure many of us here are blowing out of proportion what someone looks like based on a very narrow standard. A local youth league needs a body; they are not worried about what they completely look like if they have fewer choices. I know they are not going to get a lot of top umpires or multi-sport officials that are successful as well. Sometimes they will get who they can get. This training looks like that is part of the purpose.

Peace

It must be noted that this image is not a Biblical image of Christ. It is only and image of an artist's interpretation that has been widely accepted for some strange reason. All you have to do is read Revelations and you will see that Jesus did not have long blonde hair with blue eyes. And it is even harder to believe when the people from that region do not look like that either historically and in present day time.

Peace

I get the Bible reference but it does not apply. I am not talking about sins here. I am not judging his soul or his moral character. He may be the greatest guy you would ever want to meet.

I am talking about my personal opinions about umpire appearance. You have them, also-LOTS of them.

What is your personal opinion of an umpire that shows up 2 minutes before game time with a ratty looking hat, wrinkled pants and dirty shoes? Probably the same as mine.

My guess is that you have a long list of umpire appearance dos and don'ts. Just think about it for a few moments. We all have that list and almost everyone here would agree on most of the list. There is a very large percentage of North American society that agrees with me that Pony Tails look goofy on a guy. There is even a larger percentage of people who think that pony tails look goofy on a man doing a job that carries authority.

First, I did not say that San Diego was the "most conservative." I did say, correctly, that it is "one of the most conservative."

Secondly, the umpire to whom I was referring is a top notch umpire who worked the highest level of baseball our association offered, which was D-1 baseball, as well as the plumb HS assignments. He is a great umpire, and his long hair in a ponytail was NEVER a concern to either the association, the assignment secretary, the CIF, or any of the HS coaches, who absolutely loved the guy.

Being bigoted against long hair went out in the 1960s. It's 2009, and people wear their hair any way they choose, and if they can umpire some baseball, and I mean really umpire it, not just be a warm body, then they should get the assignments based on merit, not their hairstyle.

A ponytail does not necessarily look "goof", except in the eyes of some beholders.

An umpire needs to be well-groomed enough to command (or at least not repel) the respect of the players and coaches. That should be the assignor's test, using the standards of the players and coaches. A well-groomed (subjective, I know) ponytail can look the part. Even with non-outlandish (inlandish?) earrings and tattoos. And accuracy, consistency, rules knowledge, hustle, and game management can compensate for a marginal appearance.

Get with the times, fellow fogies! Given the low participation of youth in baseball, especially after puberty, maybe competent ponytailed umps can help attract some of the dropouts who think baseball is boring and uncool.

Oh, and Steve, that bearded guy is gonna havta lose that smock before I assign him to any playoff games. But for some reason, I think he'd look good with a Barry Bonds-style diamond cross earring.

And this just shows how little value baseball has at the amateur levels. What you just said is not completely true. For one, I would never compare D1 Baseball to other sports where the officials are not only more visible, but very well known. I could not tell you most D1 Umpires if I saw them in a criminal lineup. I even worked a D1 Baseball games and I can tell you I was a warm body on many levels. This is really true when the first D1 game I worked I was called Friday to work Sunday doubleheader to end a series. I have never seen a D1 football or basketball official ever have tattoos that were easily seen or long hair. Even facial hair is frowned upon (unless you are Black, but that is another conversation) in those sports. You do not even see this at the high school level. I see baseball umpires look all kinds of ways for high school baseball and definitely youth baseball.

Do not get me wrong, there are certainly some hot spots in this country where baseball is taken very seriously and I am sure the umpires have to have a higher standard. But all I have to do is turn on the TV when youth baseball is on and I do not see this high standard of professionalism always being displayed. And certainly not to the point where a ponytail or earrings are never displayed.

Peace

JW

Just as we form our opinions of officials from the first time we see them, so do we form our opinions of how threads are presented. It is quite obvious that your original presentation about generating a discussion on umpires appearance, left a lot to be desired. And I do understand how appearance plays a very big roll in officiatng.

And yes I also have many opinions.

You would be hard pressed to find an area of the country who takes baseball any more seriously than they do where I live, and anywhere in the SoCal region. It's more of a religion out here, worshipped nearly year-round, when most parts of the country are in hiebernation already. We take our baseball as seriously as Texas takes their HS football. And that, brother, is very seriously indeed.

And the point is, the umpire I'm talking about didn't just "happen" to get D-1 assignments. Back in the day, being a D-1 umpire was really not that big of a deal, and nobody cared what an umpire looked like. That is a more recent phenomenon. Now it's all about how purty the umpire looks, not whether or not he can umpire a friggin' tiddlywinks contest, which is how I equate many of the D-1 umpires I've seen lately. He was assigned good games because he was a good umpire all around, and was well respected by coaches and administrators everywhere.

It indeed is not.

~sigh~
 

Steve this might be the FIRST thing you have written in this thread that I agree with . . . In my "olden" days even "D1" schools didn't overly react to uniforms, shoes, hair, and tatoos. That is not the case today.

While I strongly disagree with your statement that "Being bigoted against long hair went out in the 1960s" isn't true. It simply isn't true.

There are still specific trades and professional jobs still don't allow long hair.

Sorry Steve -- I have my standards and IF I were King no umpire with a ponytail would work playoff level games.

That being said: my GF has plenty of ink and it has never stopped her from getting modeling jobs.

BTW, see me (in all my largeness) in the Season Ending January episode of Leverage.

And Jesus is not on our roster of eligible playoff umpires. (What a trite arguement -- I expect more from you).

Leverage is my favorite TV show. Let us know exactly when it's going to air. I know this week is the summer season finale.

Yeah, I was just tossing that one out there for sensationalism. I know that argument doesn't hold water. I gave it the old college try.:cool:

Tim,

Would you ever consider seeing a physician who has a pony tail?


Tim.

The bottom line is that somewhere is not making that big of a deal over a ponytail. And I think it really comes down to the competition for slots and in my area just to use it as an example, there are far less fewer slots in baseball than the other major sports. And if you live in a similar place I am sure there are people that will get opportunities in one place that would not get them in other places. And when it comes to baseball, there are first year umpires working varsity games and I even worked college games my first year because not everyone is available to work those games or willing to work those games.

Peace

I'm not Tim, but if I had a choice between two (male) physicians and the ONLY thing I knew about them was one had a pony tail and one didn't, I'd choose the one without.

That applies to umpires, too.

And, didn't Drake get told to cut his hair?

As someone once said, we are just actors in the play called, "Baseball." Just as actors have to dress for the role, so do we.

Hehehehe,
 

Steve:

We wrapped the year ending episode Tuesday night. It will be braodcast in January.

Look for me at the political fund raising dinner. I have two "hero" shots.

This is the crew for the L.A. City Final at Dodger Stadium in 2008:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...MG_21451-1.jpg

In Los Angeles, umpires are given assignments according to knowledge, ability, reliability, character, competence and other key areas related to umpiring. All four of these guys are first-rate umpires and first-rate human beings. The guy on the right--one of the finest umpires and people that I know--has a pony tail (not showing) and a short goatee. The guy on the left also has a goatee (he wears a HSM, so he doesn't have a cap). The guys in the middle both have mustaches and the short guy has a curly hairstyle that sticks out of his cap. Oh, and they're wearing gray.

Two of these guys are black, one is Hispanic, and the one white guy's a long-hair. In some circles, not one of these guys would get a key assignment. And in those circles, they do not assign the best umpires and the best people to the most important games. They assign the best ... uh, you know, qualified. ;) ... ;)

I would not call it a pony tail, but my physician wears her long hair tied back behind her head.

I work with two very fine umpires, one who posts on this board, was one of the very first umpires I have worked with that wears earrings. The second umpire has a pony tail that he keeps tucked under his cap. I would go into battle with both in a heartbeat!!!

I have no problem some that locales don't consider a professional appearance to be important.

In my area those gentlement would be highly regarded for their mechanics knowledge and ability and perhaps their rules knowledge. Again, they would not be considred great umpires without the complete package.

Appearance, professionalism, grooming, and athleticism all appear on our rating sheet.

It does not cause us to use inferior umpires, rather, our members understand the importance placed on those traits and make them part of their umpiring. Your arguement that these guys would get short shrift in other areas in speculation. If they are that good, and if umpiring is important to them, I would speculate they would follow the rules of their association.

Different strokes. We are not California casual here. And from my experience, none of the pros I've run into are either.

Side question: How does everybody feel about gray as a warm-weather alternate?

California casual ... :D

Do you prefer a clean-shaven, egotistical, immobile hack to a humble, diligent, knowledgeable, mobile umpiring devotee? Because our assignors often make that same choice. And our evaluators often weigh 15 different criteria against grooming, and rate great umpires with goatees accordingly.

Of course not, but I don't think that's the issue here.

The issue is a clean-shaven, egotistical, imobile hack vs. a bearded, egotistical, immobile hack.

The issue as I've read along seems to be that "improper grooming" [insert personal definition here] is in and of itself reason to disqualify an umpire.

Good thing that it doesn't apply to players - we'd have missed out on a LOT of really good ones.

Perfect! :D

That was beautiful.

We disagree almost not at all on this one, then?

Well....

This has been an illuminating conversation.

When I was younger, I have worn both a ponytail and an earring - at times, concurrently.

I have never worn either while umpiring a baseball game.

Nor would I hold it against an umpire who did, were I in a position to do so (which I'm not).

I finally watched the linked video. I was pretty impressed with the quality of the training someone was putting on for youth umpires. (Yeah, I thought the feet together thing was pretty wierd, but, overall...)

The gentleman in question, with the earrings and ponytail, seemed to know what he was talking about and had a good "manner" with the kids he was teaching. He was also "professionally dressed", which, to me, is more important than the person's appearance with regard to hair length, facial hair, piercings, or "ink".

Yeah, I could "quibble" with a few things he was teaching, but I bet the kids paid attention to him.

My impression is that he'd be a fun partner to work with.

Now, I wear my hair shorter. If I'm working a game at a HS with a "dress code", I will conform to that code in what I wear driving to the game. That's just how I do it.

I don't think a ponytail should be any more disqualifying than a "buzz cut". In some situations it is.

Recognize the situation and, as in all things, do as you think best.

JM

Are you implying that you can't be proud of the military if you're not a conservative?

No, I think he's implying that much like Norfolk Va, SD is a military town. Nothing more.

Tim.

Why would you assume that it had to be such a choice, especially when I've specified "the complete package" in all my posts?

I believe really good umpires step up and fmeet the expectations of their associations. Different locales, different expectations, apparently. We follow the pro expectations. Some do not.

Are you implying that you can't be proud of the military if you're not a conservative?

I know many non-conservatives who think highly of our military; some serve in it. However, I used to live in the college town of Princeton, New Jersey, and there are many people there—who have all sorts of wonderful degrees and teach the "best and the brightest"—who have nothing but contempt for the U.S. military and anyone who serves in it. They are also quite outspoken about their feelings, too, especially since they are usually among kindred spirits. They see to it that military recruiters cannot set foot on campus. I guarantee you that not a single one is a conservative.

There may be some, but I never met a conservative who hated our military.

Fred Phelps.

Doesn't this entire thread boil down simply to accepted local standards ? Every association I've been associated with has standards, most of which they themselves set. Either you meet those standards (in your opinion fair or not), or you do not.

This whole statement is one of the most absurd statements I have ever read on this subject. How prejudiced can a supposed sports official be? Good glory! You need to get to know more people. Oh, after first prying open your mind.

... Grey Mule, I'm pretty liberal, and I help veterans every week. I've been helping veterans ever since 1981. And I don't mean write a check to some charity, I mean feed, clothe, clean up and otherwise help them cope with being homeless and forgotten by the country that they risked their lives to serve. They live on the streets and park lands surrounding the V.A. near my office in Westwood. I take them to UCLA baseball games and just talk to them like they mean something. Sometimes, they just need to be fed some hope that someday the nation will take responsibility for them in the manner that they are due and were promised. Meanwhile, we do. And it's nowhere near enough, because less than one percent of the people in this nation help them.

Do you even know that there are 300,000 homeless veterans in this country? That number will be skyrocketing in the next two years. What do you do to contribute besides making these bizarre statements?

Amen. There are many anti-military people out there, and they are most definitely on the far-left.
I don't see anything wrong with his statement. He correctly points out that many non-conservatives and liberals have served in the military and are very patriotic people in general. He also pointed out correctly that there are those among us with a hatred and contempt for our military, and these people are trying to indoctrinate the youth of this country against everything our country has proudly stood for all these many years. They do prohibit military recruiters on campuses. That's a fact, not a closed-minded opinion.

I too have never known of a conservative (I don't even know who the hell Fred Phelps is) who hates the military, but I do know a whole lot of ultra left-wing, free-to-be-hug-a-tree-let's-save-everything-except-people nuts out there who, like Bill Clinton, "loathe the military."

Clinton did not loathe the military.

He may have you there, Steve. If Bubba said it then there is every reason to believe that he does not loathe the military. I will stand on the side of history ans assume the opposite of what Bubba actually said.

Well, he said it in a letter to a ROTC Colonel who was trying to recruit him.

No, he didn't.

Oh, well; we're having an adult conversation, so this thread's going to be censored and closed.

Statement has been revised to indicate the facts.

No, he didn't. That is both a misquotation and taken out of context.

Well, the thread was all about earrings and ponytails to start with, so this could just be the thread for any other discussion, since that subject has been played out pretty much.

How could a misquotation have a context?

No he didn't. This is the actuall quote from his letter which before the anti-Clinton gang misquoted it.

"And that is where I am now, writing to you because you have been good to me and have a right to know what I think and feel. I am writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves still loving their country but loathing the military, to which you and other good men have devoted years, lifetimes, of the best service you could give. To many of us, it is no longer clear what is service and what is disservice, or, if it is clear, the conclusion is likely to be illegal.

In his letter, he talked about his reasons for sympathizing with anti-war, anti-military supporters and draft dodgers, which he admitted he was. This is the paragraph which is often equated with his loathing of the military, written immediately following his explanation of why he would not go fight for his country.

"And that is where I am now, writing to you because you have been good to me and have a right to know what I think and feel. I am writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves still loving their country but loathing the military, to which you and other good men have devoted years, lifetimes, of the best service you could give. To many of us, it is no longer clear what is service and what is disservice, or, if it is clear, the conclusion is likely to be illegal."

Okay, we both know what he said. But did you read the rest of the letter in which he basically told the Colonel that he got a deferment to avoid the draft?

Yes, it could only be one or the other, but not both. In the context Clinton meant it, he was describing people who he identified strongly with.

Dick Cheney's a conservative. He's been loathing the military since the early 60s when he dreamed up his first deferment.

Dick Cheney is a boob, and not very conservative. Republicans are not all conservative and there are conservative democrats. There are two extremes, and both ends are highly dangerous.

Yep. How is that any different from millions of others including many who later became famous chicken hawks?

Holy sh!t. I just spilled my beer.


Don't tell Rush or anyone over at FOX. They've all be touting him as one of the few remaining TRUE conservatives.

Uh, none of them were elected president?:confused:

Sorry, I can't relate. I volunteered during the Vietnam War at the age of 17.

Their party needs a leader that's not a radio host or former half-term governor. Failed vice-president is a big step up.

Sorry, I don't listen to talk radio very much these days. Nor do I sit around watching the news that just keeps getting better and better every day.:rolleyes:

Give me sports, sports and more sports.

It was both.

He never stated "I loathe the military," nor was he stating that the military was bad.

It was a lamentation of the situation of the era, one in which he felt that a proud institution was being used in an immoral or improper fashion. This is abundantly clear in the sentences following the "loathing" comment.

What!!!!!
 

What in the heck does not wanting to go to war (a rather common feeling) and hating the military have to do with each other?

And I know some rather liberal people; I have never once heard someone suggest they hated the military. Maybe you do need to get out more often Steve.

Actually Steve there was a conservative religious group in Illinois that would go to military funerals from these current wars and would taunt the families and people attending the funeral. And their claim was those individuals deserved it because they military allowed gays in the military. A law had to be created by and Democratic Governor to create a buffer for protest at military funerals. Not sure where you get your information from.

Peace

Oh, you don't know any liberals that hate the military? Maybe you need to get out more often. I'm not talking about rational, thoughtful, patriotic liberals. I know there are many. I'm talking about extremists, like the ones you are describing, only liberal extremists.

I already said that there were extremes on both sides and that both of those extremes are dangerous.

BTW, that "religious" group you speak of must have a California branch as well, because there have been reports of this happening about a year ago here at Fort Rosecrans National Cemetary.

Politics is a joke ... but only if it's taken seriously.

(I love that line.)

THAT'S Fred Phelps.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, that Fred Phelps! :rolleyes: :p That's not a conservative, that is a nut job!!!

No I have never heard anyone say that hate the military other than the group I referenced. And I do not know if hate is the right word for their behavior. Just because you disagree with a policy or the leadership for a course of action, that does not mean you hate something. But for most conservatives that is hard to understand. Considering that anyone that opposed the war was considered unpatriotic and un-American.

I am sure they were doing this all over the country. I just know that the current governor (he was the Lt. Gov at the time) spoke at an official's banquet and talked about passing this law. The law was passed a few months later. But that is the only group I know that openly talked about the military in a hateful way (at least recently). For you to say that most groups that feel that way are liberal is not only misleading, it is not true. I do not think the issues that people that blew up the Government building in Oklahoma City were liberal. Oh, you forgot that. ;)

Peace