Way over-simplified statement. I don't think people that are opposed to (what war?) are necessarily unpatriotic, but if they are called to war and don't go, they are very definitely chicken and don't deserve to live in this country, as millions have died to give them the freedom they are afraid to stand up for. Many died in Vietnam because of the anti-military efforts perpetrated on our own soil, by supposedly patriotic, red-blooded Americans who thwarted our military efforts, affected political decisions and swayed our military to back out of a war that WE WERE GOING TO WIN IF GIVEN THE CHANCE!



Again, I'm talking about extremists, which Timoty McVeigh was. He was nota conservative or a liberal, he was a fruit cake extremist with an agenda that nowhere remotely resembles a conservative. Ultra right-wingers are as dangerous, if not more dangerous than the hate-spewing, God-hating ultra left-wingers.

You can disagree all you want, but I was in the military during Vietnam and know the score. I really didn't like getting nasty looks from all the peaceniks either, but oh well, I put up with it. All gave some. Some gave all.

If it is an over simplistic statement, it did not come from me. The past administration had several people publicly suggested the patriotism of those that opposed their policy for war. And I do not believe soldiers died in Vietnam because there were people here that opposed the war. Sorry, that is a very hollow argument. Unless there were citizens in Vietnam shooting or bombing our soldiers, that is not a very good claim.

You are right, his McVeigh's views were so not conservative, that his views were shared and expounded by people that claim to be conservative.

I get it, your claim is that only liberals are evil and anyone that is takes positions or sides with conservatism are not that way, they are just nut jobs.

Peace

Dick Cheney is indeed a conservative. And he was a draft dodger of the highest order. If being a hobo would get a deferment, he would be hopping trains the next day. He never even got far enough in the military to go AWOL.

Exactly. I love when conservatives throw out the anti-military crap about Democrats/liberals. It's pretty easy to just throw the Cheney thing right back at them. On top of that, a few years ago I saw a comparison of Democrat and Republican members of Congress. The Democrats made the Republicans look like Boy Scouts.

I find it funny how Cheney is lamented as not being a true conservative. That seems to happen quite a bit: Conservatives distance themselves from failed conservative leaders.

"Oh, that Bush and Cheney....they weren't conservatives!!" (Were they liberal? Because they sure weren't moderates)

And there's a difference?:D

Hairsplitter.

The Democrats made the Republicans look like Boy Scouts.

Most of the people who hate the military also hate the Boy Scouts.

And you see that is the infectious disease we continue to exhibit in this country. Your a conservative, liberal, democrate, republican, black, right wing, nazi, ............. and the list goes on.

Do we have anybody out there saying I am satisfied just being an American and doing things in the best intrest of America. That is being a true Patriot in my book. Like Kevin, I am sure he can care less what color, party affiliation, or religious background the veterans are, they are Americans that were willing to give their life for their country and it's the least he can do to repay them.

I might be the oddball here but I am dam well proud of it.

Some people may not believe in gravity either, but they will if they jump off a building to try to prove their claim. Because you don't believe it doesn't make it not true. The war was prolonged due to the lack of support given to our military leaders at the time, which was largely due to the unpopularity of the "police action" in Vietnam. If our military had not been hamstrung, we would have bombed the NVC back into the stone age and been done with it. Why do you think Vietnam vets are so bitter? We could have won that war, but folks like Hanoi Jane Fonda and others like her swayed public opinion in favor of pulling out and letting the communists overrun South Vietnam. To you, this is history. To me, and many like me, it was our daily lives.


I don't know any fiscal conservatives (how about Joe Lieberman or Zell Miller for example, whom I would vote for in a NY minute) who shared McVeigh's views. McVeigh and his ilk are not what is meant by conservative.

No, you obviously don't get it. There are evil extreme left-wing nut jobs, and evil extreme right-wing nut jobs. McVeigh was an evil ultra-right wing nut job. He has no resemblence to a true conservative.

The vast majority of us are all much closer to the center, and differ only in policy and other minor difference, but we are still loyal Americans. I have many friends who are democrats. We get along great, and they are very patriotic Americans. Liberal and Conservative are not bad words until taken to the extreme in both directions.


Peace, OUT.

Grey Mule, I'll ask again: Do you even know that there are 300,000 homeless veterans in this country? That number will be skyrocketing in the next two years. What do you do to contribute besides making these bizarre statements?

So you DON'T do anything to help our veterans, you just have these catchy bumper sticker platitudes to bark out. That's what I thought. That's the usual contribution, because first you have to recognize that there's a problem, and then you have to agree to take some responsibility for the problem. That's not happening.

The reason for the comment that you repeated in bold: There is a list of prominent Republican leaders compared to prominent Democratic leaders, and the Democrats who served in the military outnumbered the Republicans by something like three-to-one. Guys like war heroes John Kennedy and George McGovern. McCain, Dole and Bush 41 were about the only Republican guys on the list. But the list of Republican chicken hawks was impressive. Some of the biggest voices, like Deferment Dick Cheney and Newt Gingrich.

I love how you use a totally irrelevant issue like whether people believe in gravity to address this issue. I do not know anyone that does not believe in gravity. I guess that means you know someone that does? :rolleyes:


There are more people in the conservative world that are not just fiscal. If that is the case, I am a social conservative considering that most of my views would go along with the social conservative movement, I just do not feel those things are much more things the government should not be dictating. Pat Roberson is not just a fiscal conservative, he is much more of a social conservative and guys like him helped stoke the fire of people like McVeigh and their views of the government.

I did not say there were not left-wing extremists. But you make it sound like to be one you have to hate the military and no one conservative feels that way at all. There are a lot of people that hate the government for a lot of reasons. And no one side has a monopoly on that feeling. But it is not inherent in liberalism to hate the military and it never has been.

Most people that call a side extreme are when those sides do not agree with them.

Peace

I definitely think that trainers need to be over-the-top in their (un)adherence to umpiring "taboos." They should be picked for their representation of a model umpire for probees to look up to and mimic. Which typically in the first year or two is what many umpires do, they will just mimic the dress, looks and signals of older umpires.

Just my 2-cents on the comment posed in the UMPIRE FORUM.

Here's the list that ZM was referring to:

Democrats
Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.
Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.
Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.
Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.
Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII.
John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, Purple Hearts.
Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.
Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam.
Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53.
Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve,1968-74.
Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.
Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.
Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Star.
Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit.
Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.
Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star, Combat V.
Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.
Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57
Chuck Robb: Vietnam
Howell Heflin: Silver Star
George McGovern: Silver Star &DFC during WWII.
Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but received #311 in the lottery.
Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy.
Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953
John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18 Clusters.
Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg.

Republicans
Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage.
Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
Tom Delay: did not serve.
Bill Frist: did not serve.
Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
Rick Santorum: did not serve.
Trent Lott: did not serve.
John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.
Jeb Bush: did not serve.
Karl Rove: did not serve.
Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. (Chambliss is the man who attacked Max Cleland's patriotism)
Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
Richard Perle: did not serve.
Richard Shelby: did not serve.
Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.
JC Watts: did not serve.
Jack Kemp: did not serve. "Knee problem," although continued in NFL for 8 years.
Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
George Pataki: did not serve.
Phil Gramm: did not serve.
Christopher Cox: did not serve.
Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.
Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base.
Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting was over in Korea.
Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard.
Ronald Reagan: U.S. Army (due to poor eyesight, served in a non-combat role).
Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor.
John McCain: US Navy 1958-81; Vietnam P.O.W.; Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.
George H.W. Bush: U.S. Navy in WWII; Distinguished Flying Cross
George W. Bush: failed to complete six-year National Guard assignment; re-assigned from Texas to Alabama National Guard so he could campaign for family friend running for U.S. Senate; failing to show up for required medical exam and duties, was stripped of his pilot status.

Pundits, Pontificators & Preachers
Sean Hannity: did not serve.
Rush Limbaugh: did not serve.
Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.
Michael Savage: did not serve.
George Will: did not serve.
Paul Gigot: did not serve.
Bill Bennett: did not serve.
Pat Buchanan: did not serve.
Bill Kristol: did not serve.
Kenneth Starr: did not serve.
Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
Clarence Thomas: did not serve.
Ralph Reed: did not serve.
Michael Medved: did not serve.

Look at all those Democrats with Distinguished Flying Crosses and Purple Hearts! And then, look at McCain, Dole and Bush I---very impressive trio!

Let's hear some more deferment stories, Grandpa Dick.

What is the proper mechanic used by a liberal umpire on type A obstruction?

Is it different for a conservative umpire?

Thanks,


Tim.

So while we're here in the middle on something, let's all shake hands.

This only proves that Democrat heroes are the only ones sleazy enough to enter politics! (Just kidding I don't believe that for a second.)

I agree with Kevin - it's the extremes (left and right) that scare the hell out of me.

Would you refuse to assign a playoff game to an umpire who loathes the military?

Why would that, or should that come up within the framework of umpiring? I would like to think I was on the field with a fair, honorable, courageous man. Most of the rest of the details of his life and beliefs are irrelevant.

I have three regular umpiring partners that are ex-Marines. I have a regular partner that seems like a fringe character, who would never make it as a soldier, could possibly loathe the military, but has more guts than anybody out there.

I refuse to offer an opinion either way, and instead I make us talk about relevant things like baseball.

The only reason the subject was broached here was to dispel the myth that Democrats, or liberals, are too soft to serve in the military.

You mean , kind of like a do over.

Only if JW sings "Cum Bye Ah" in the background, while SDS checks the scale and I stand there saluting all in my pony tail and earings.

And the little ole lady from the "Griswalds Christmas story" echos

"AND THE ROCKETS RED GLARE"

Almost makes me wanna grow a ponytail, and get pierced, and maybe ink up a little, if we can all just get along.

That is totally asinine and very insulting to me personally to smear a good man like Pat Robertson's name by saying that what he preaches fired up a sleaze bucket like McVeigh. Why don't you go look up what Pat Roberston, the 700 Club, and CBN have done for victims of natural disasters in this country. Find a group who helped out anymore during Katrina, for example. You can't. Yeah, blame the Christians for mentally deranged individuals blowing up a building. Ridiculous link.

Oh, that long list? You sure left a whole lot of democratic politicians and pundits off the list. Where is Barack? Where is Carville or Stephanopolis? Blitzer, Matthews, Olbermann? Just to name a few. I'm sure I can find a whole lot more.

~sigh~
 

I think I hear the sound of a Master Lock being opened.

Me too. Time to ditch the high-n-tight look and let my hair down. Time to get that KISS tattoo I've always wanted too!:cool:

Yeah, wouldn't that be a shame!:rolleyes:

It's from 2004. When Kerry got defamed for his service.

I thought this stayed pretty cool.

I am disappointed that nobody weighed in on the use of the gray shirt as the warm weather alternate.

Oh yeah, the famous "threw my medals over the wall" scandal.

I think the gray shirt looks very sharp. JMO.:cool:

The point was that Kerry was an actual hero who actually laid his life on the line to serve and actually saved men while he served, while some of those leaders calling him into question--like Cheney--were too busy, or too privileged, or too cowardly to serve.

I hate powder blue, because twice a campus security guy said something like, "Let me show you how to find the softball field." They never say that with gray.

For your information I am a Christian and I do not share the views of Pat Robertson or many people on the so-called religious right. And I would never say things that Robertson has said about others as he has publicly. You can be insulted all you want to be, but McVeigh and others in his movement were Christians as well. Even the Klan considers themselves a Christian organization. I am not sure why you are all of sudden offended by this connection when clearly people claim all kinds of religious affiliations and do un-Christian things.

And yes there were many groups that helped people in the Katrina situation. There were numerous groups that did so. I am not sure what that has to do with anything.

Peace

I have decided to interpret Christianity to mean that I can have sex with 10 or 12 mistresses as long as none of them ever meet each other. It seems like a more beneficial interpretation than the kind that make me want to kill or die.

I'm not greedy. I don't need 72. And no virgins ... experience is everything.

My wife can't stand the powder blue or polo blue either. She says it's not very becoming on an umpire. I tend to agree. Black, navy or gray would be my votes.

If I may rephrase...

I am not sure what that has to do with umpiring.

I'm no fan of any of the light blue shirts. I do like my gray shirts with the charcoal pants.

..and the last shall be first.

Yeah, I too first clicked the link and was already in Pavlovian mode to criticize and demean... but... I watched and know what it is like to TRAIN and ORGANIZE said activities, and so far for my 7 million volunteer hours have recieved nothing. Occasionally, a student says "Thanks" or "Good job". That's enough.

I see guys giving their time to HELP some new umpires get better. Part of learning this craft is filtering good instruction from bad. Probably MOST of what this group was getting was good instruction. Was this group BETTER after these sessions? I'll bet yes.

As stated before, amazing how many working amatuer umpires and organizations have no and offer no training. I applaud all the instructors in this video and congratulate all the attendees for caring enough to work to improve.

And can I get an AMEN and "Goodnite Chet", 'Goodnite David, "Goodnite Harriet", Goodnite Johnboy", "Goodnite Thread"


This program has been brought to you by Proctor and Gambles Pork and Beans, any re-broadcasting without the explicit approval of the NFL, AFL, CIA or MOUSE is strictly forbidden.

#######........................................... ..........?

And that's the way it is ...

In the end, extremist viewpoints, no matter where they are grounded, are dangerous. Extremist conservative, extremist liberal, extremist Muslim, extremist Christian, extremist tree hugger, extremist NRA member, whatever. I don't want to have lunch with any of them.

And as SDS stated earlier in a different way, in this country 99% of the population fits in to about 1% of the left/right political spectrum.

Mandatory crazy link included for your viewing pleasure... The Flat Earth Society -- Home

Now Kevin, THATS the way it is... goodnight.

I think extremist it the wrong word. It implies that McVeigh(for instance) took a legitimate belief too far. McVeigh was not a conservative gone wrong. He was an evil homicidal maniac. He murdered men, women, children and babies.

I am a conservative. I believe that the US Constitution does not allow many of the things that the Federal Government does. I REALLY believe that. I believe that I should speak out about it and try to elect people who will obey the US Constitution.

Did he believe some thins that I believe? I am sure he did. He probably believed in things that all of us believe in-that cannot explain his actions. He was evil-THAT explains his actions.

I like the polo blue, with the dark grey pants. I do not like the powder blue.

Thank you, Bob.

... For weighing in, and for letting us air it out a little and letting us police ourselves. It worked out okay, didn't it? We got to find out that none of us are extremists.

do you need a Kleenex, now... you have some stuff running down your cheek...LOL

everyone know appearance is everything... the guy with the pony tail might be able to umpire, but the way he looks will get him crap.

Dude, not only do you not know this guy, but I'll bet he has been working baseball since you were a little boy and even earlier, possibly before you were born. He could more than likely umpire circles around you, and I'm certain that he has forgotten more about umpiring than you know. The way he looks got him all sorts of good assignments over the years, and his appearance never cost him a thing.

I don't have anything running down my cheek, except a little snot. Oh, wait...that was just you.

What if the umpire's a woman; is a ponytail okay?

And here are two partners (and I have had both):

A) Clean-cut guy and physically fit. He gets out of the car with badly wrinkled, non-uniform light gray pants; faded, sweat-stained purple mesh cap, canvas belt and faded navy t-shirt. He's wearing mostly black running shoes and black and gold and white pattern socks. He goes to his trunk and pulls out a balled-up, faded navy shirt with no association patch and says, "We're going navy, right?" and pulls it on. He was finished. I thought he went to the trunk to get started. (I was standing there in my charcoal slacks and black t-shirt after having called for black on black with charcoal the night before.)

B) Very overweight guy with a large moustache and one of those Frank Zappa things under his lip, and a ponytail that he eventually tucked up under his cap. He walked to the back of his car and opened it up and it looked like a men's store with a whole rack of shirts, slacks and jackets, and stacked up drawers and bins---all perfectly organized. He pulled on a clean, pressed Honig's uniform (right down to the poly-wools); a clean, creased, new-looking cap; a pair of shiny, all-black Reeboks. He was impeccable.

I would rather go onto a field with an impeccably dressed 280-pound version of Frank Zappa than a careless, slovenly, but well-groomed and physically fit version of Ray Liotta.

So appearance is important, but the uniform is drastically more important than the grooming or fitness of the man wearing it.

Matt - first, congrats on your assignment (I'm retired Army) and understood everything you said! :)

I guess one question we need to ask - are you an exception to the rule or the new breed?

I am very conservative in my beliefs and as you know, being that you're in the military, first impressions are important. I'm sure you've had your share of "issues" due to your decisions - and that's natural.

Some (me included) are pre-disposed to their ideas about long hair, facial hair, tatoos, etc. Until the playing field is leveled (in the future, if it ever is) there will always be two sides to this....and there is really no sense trying to talk the other side out of their opinion.

Just my $02.

PS - we have this discussion annually on the basketball referee forum. Same issues.

Having lived in a mid-market midwestern city (Des Moines) and a similarly sized military city (Colorado Springs), I can say definitively that the military city is more conservative than the midwestern city. In fact, I would be hard pressed to think of a midwest city of more than a quarter million that would be considered "conservative" by any measure (cultural, social, or political).

And while I've certainly met my share of liberal military members, the correlation between military service and conservative politics is quite strong.

The problem starts when you see everything as having only two sides. That's why you are limited in your scope. There are far too many people with far too many concerns for there to only be two sides.

Open up and look around. You're only here once; you gain way more when your eyes are open.

Again you fail to recognize that there are other religious beliefs. ;)

I sure hope that if I do have another life, it's as a man again. ;)

I cannot speak for Colorado Springs or the make up of most of Iowa. But I can tell you that in Illinois, there are little towns that are very homogeneous and are small farm towns and these are not very diverse areas. And if you use voting and politics as a guide, these places are very conservative in their values and in the way they vote and the policies they support. Not to suggest that anyone in those communities are all the same, but when Obama was running for the Senate (he was from a Chicago district in the Illinois legislature) he had to convince people that have never voted Democrat to vote for him. And I am not talking about military bases or membership being the main base of these communities. I also know many military people that are not are racial minorities are not politically conservative, at least in the way they claim to vote or look at issues of public policy. Military service is not the overriding factor for all those that are members. Serving in the military might be a factor, but it is certainly not the factor to how conservative they might be.

Peace

That's why I qualified by saying cities of a quarter million or more. I grew up in a small town in the middle of Iowa where the politics and social mores were very conservative. I went to college in Northwest Iowa, where the politics made my small home town look like San Francisco in comparison.

I wouldn't claim to say it's "the" factor in most cases. There are a lot of things that come into play, such as religious background, the politics of your parents, union membership, income and education level, etc.

I'm not saying there's a causal relationship between military service and conservative politics; but I am saying there's a definite correlation. I would guess there is some causal relation as well, but that's based purely on anecdotal evidence rather than statistical analysis so I won't go beyond speculation on that.

And with Obama, he benefited a great deal from some Republican scandals (at various levels of Illinois politics) shortly before and during his campaign that left him with a very politically weak opponent and a general Illini distaste for the GOP. This is not to say he wouldn't have won otherwise, I think he would have, but it woudn't have been the landslide it turned out to be.

And Steve's initial point was (unspoken as it may have been) regarding metropolitan areas. I highly doubt he was comparing the politics of San Diego to the politics of Orange City, Iowa. That would be like comparing apples to baseballs.

Yes, you are correct. I should have phrased it "one of the most conservative large metropolitan cities." I know it doesn't compare with the redneck lifestyle and brand of conservatism over in Podunk, Iowa. We don't do lynchin's or marry our first cousins.

I was simply pointing out that San Diego is the only large city in California that boasts a conservative majority, and is reflected in our voting patterns. That is what I meant about a "sea of liberalism."

In no way did I infer or intimate that there aren't many brave, patriotic liberals. My HS assignor is a big liberal, yet was a very courageous, brave Boswain's Mate in the U.S. Navy during the Korean War. He is also one of my dear friends, who gave me my now-infamous nickname. And I wasn't always a conservative. In fact, I voted for Mondale/Ferraro in 1984. That was the last time I voted Democrat for any office higher than Dog Catcher.:)

Good subject gets out of hand.
 

Posts to be eliminated and thread locked I'm almost sure.......

I was 10 and working on the Mondale campaign in 1984. I voted for Bill Clinton twice and for Tom Vilsack in 1998. That was the last time for me.

And I'm offended by the Podunk comment. There were no lynchins. Cousins, OTOH.... In all seriousness, the biggest problem I saw with small towns was the general aversion to outsiders regardless of skin color or politics. I wasn't 3rd or 4th generation, so we were outsiders to that town.

Completely agreed.

Agree again. And I completely agree or have similar information based on anecdotal information.

He did and he didn't benefit. Obviously the scandal helped, but when Carol Moseley Braun was elected Senator, she did not care many if any southern districts in Illinois and she did not need to. There are almost as many people in urban Chicago area and surrounding counties as there are in all of that outside of that region. So yes he got more votes than Moseley Braun did, but he might have won anyway if he had northern Illinois and Cook County support.

If he wasn't, then he needed to make that much clearer. And the reason I say this, is because as an African-American that works baseball in the past in very rural and all-white communities, it is kind of a shock in some cases when I show up to work a game by the reaction. And this past year I worked the State Finals in the two smallest classes of schools and I probably could hold on one hand the number of non-white players I had through all the playoff games, including the State Finals themselves. And these were involving schools that were far from metropolitan areas or even the larger areas in the state (not in every case but by far more were in very rural areas). And I know if the reaction to me which was mostly positive was seen by those that are not used to seeing a person of my color working games very often, I can only imagine the things that might be assumed by someone that is wearing a ponytail or has certain tattoos on their arm. It is just one of those things that might not be widely accepted. Now our society is changing and many of the people are exposed to more different types of people than they ever were though media sources and especially TV. So it might not be seen the same visceral reaction, but there are still standards that exist.

Peace

Jeff,
I agree with you on the standards of appearance, but this is bound to vary by region. For example, SD may be more politically conservative than the rest of CA, but it's still CA and I would venture to say the standards of dress are still more casual in the business world of SD than they are in Des Moines or Minneapolis or Kansas City. The individual details of these things are going to vary widely by region.

My philosophy on the appearance thing (goatees, ponytails, etc) is that you just need to do as the Romans are doing. If your particular area doesn't give a rip, then don't worry about it. If it's a problem where you live, then I'd adhere as best as possible to the unspoken local standards. Just don't be surprised to find that the hippies in CA do it differently.

SanDiegoSteve - I'm not disagreeing with you. This is the worst language I've seen on here and thought the posts would be deleted and the possibly thread locked by now. No cause for this here.

I don't mind talking points of view, upbringings, ideas, prejudices, misconceptions, and even politics - as it pertains to athletics, etc.

But, my thoughts were - it got very personal, offensive, and went in the toilet and that is usually not allowed to stay posted.

Snaqs but what about background checks on officials with pony tails? :D

rotflmao!

I think that depends on their tattoos.

I think it is all about local standards or company standards in the first place. I tend to dress better than most people in professional settings because I feel I already have people trying to judge me anyway. The last thing I want someone to try to infer is that I am not professional or that I am not qualified based on how I look. That is my standard and how I approach these issues. I would never get a tattoo or have my hair in a way that is not considered professional by the most professional expectations.

I am sure CA might have D1 umpires that look different than across many parts of the country. But I would like to look like someone that could easily fit in anywhere in the country and sometimes is overly dressed in this capacity.

Peace

I think for the most part we are having a reasonable discussion here. Let us not go into name calling of others simply to make a point. Even the talk about politics in this topic has been fair and intelligent. I am not sure Steve was doing that here, but I hope we can discuss these differences without getting too personal or out of line. And sports often are shaped by society and societal issues. Certainly on what you look like and how you present yourself is apart of that. I just had my professor in a Broadcasting class just talk about that very thing and sports were not even the topic.

This was very funny BTW. :D

Peace

I you were reading the exchange, I wasn't the one calling anyone names here, I was responding to someone characterizing me as a homosexual, and I take great offense to such personal attacks. Grunewar was agreeing with me that the offending party was way out of line.

I agree with all of this. I'm in a position where I dress above most in my office (due to who writes my paycheck as opposed to who writes the checks for the others in my office) most days.

Frankly, I can understand your approach professionally. Does this mean I show up to a basketball game in a tie? Not at all, because it's not expected in my region and would actually most likely be mocked unless I could claim to be an attorney or something. It does, however, mean I don't show up in jeans or sweats no matter what my partners are doing.

As a good friend of mine says, "Dress for the job you want, not the job you have."

You completely missed the point of my post. And there are bigger things to get upset by when it is not true. ;)

Peace

Yeah, you're right...I don't understand your point at all. What exactly are you saying?

It doesn't matter.

Peace

It matters to me. Are you saying I have no right to take umbrage to disparaging remarks concerning my personal life? That I should allow those remarks to stand without any recourse?

No, he was just saying that in his opinion, the comments were so juvenile they really didn't need a response. YMMV, of course.

They were indeed juvenile, and coming from a 50 year-old man sounded more like an attack on me, not to mention I find that kind of talk to be disgusting and perverted.

I took it that he was trying to be funny by calling you some sort of jock sniffer, but took it to a special kind of disgusting. In my opinion, it speaks more clearly of his level of emotional and mental development than anything else.

Jock sniffer is a long way from where he went.

His comments were a disgrace, and indicative of profound cowardice and sickness. Absolutely shameful. People like that Mazza shouldn't be allowed around young people.

I agree completely.

Well, this thread was pretty darn good for a while. It touched on some sensitive topics and the discussions got quite spirited. For the most part, though, I thought the participants remained civil to each other.

Yeah, that was fun while it lasted.

Steve, you might not enjoy all of my posts, just like I don't enjoy all of your's. However, this thread has run it's course. I don't enjoy reading sexually explicit comments even if they're not your quotes. I read this forum to learn about how to be a better umpire. This thead is not teaching me any more about how I can improve. I think this could be settled via PM's or email if you choose to figure it out via the internet. Not on the semi-public forum where umpires share ideas and thoughts regarding baseball. This was a good thread, but it's run it's course. Lock it up. Feel free to have them lock the thread on me as well, if you feel that I'm hijacking a thread to settle personal attacks. I won't be offended.

Pretty easy to say since it wasn't you being referred to in that way. What would you think if he said something like that to you? I can't imagine you would just let it stand or let it slide.

If he sincerely is apologetic, then I accept the apology. I just needed to remind him of exactly what he said, because he seemed to have forgotten.