Another Joe Morgan funny

[grunewar]

Kevin - good explanation. I can picture it very well as you described it.

Mike Musina used to have a similar hurky-jerky type motion and am surprised more players didn't steal off him.

I think base stealing is a lost art.....

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Kevin - good explanation. I can picture it very well as you described it.

Mike Musina used to have a similar hurky-jerky type motion and am surprised more players didn't steal off him.

I think base stealing is a lost art.....

Or they figured out that you have to steal a LOT for it to make a very big difference in MLB games.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Wow!

It has so much more to do with a decline in skills and nuances and artistry like gurunewar just illuminated than some game-wide strategy revelation.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

and Billingsley was about to deliver, and just held onto it and stood there like the over-matched rookie that he was.

Okay.

Did he or did he not pitch the ball?

OBR 2.00. A PITCH is a ball delivered to the batter by the pitcher.

Was the ball delivered? If so, then we have a pitch and your original statement was false.

If not, did the pitcher begin an actual pitching motion toward the plate? If so, then we have a balk and Orlando would have made it home either way.

If not, did the pitcher just stand there in a set/windup position while watching the runner steal? If so, then your original statement was false.

Either way, it's impossible to "[steal] home during a pitch by a right-handed pitcher, and he did it so cleanly that the pitch was never even delivered." Either the pitch was delivered, it was a balk, or the pitcher stood there doing nothing.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Oh, come on now. Let's get literal and technical again. What is the deal with this lately? The runner stole home as Billingsly went through his incredibly deliberate motion. Whether it was a balk or an SB in the scorebook is really irrelevant. Can't people just enjoy a good baseball story without picking it apart and nit-picking? Kevin was at the game, for cryin' out loud.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by yawetag

Okay.

Did he or did he not pitch the ball?

OBR 2.00. A PITCH is a ball delivered to the batter by the pitcher.

Was the ball delivered? If so, then we have a pitch and your original statement was false.

If not, did the pitcher begin an actual pitching motion toward the plate? If so, then we have a balk and Orlando would have made it home either way.

If not, did the pitcher just stand there in a set/windup position while watching the runner steal? If so, then your original statement was false.

Either way, it's impossible to "[steal] home during a pitch by a right-handed pitcher, and he did it so cleanly that the pitch was never even delivered." Either the pitch was delivered, it was a balk, or the pitcher stood there doing nothing.

All right, you have made a very eloquent case and I must say that both the official scorer and I are still not wrong.

Look at the official box score, the guy gave Cabrera a steal of home and didn't nick Billingsley with a balk:

[Kevin Finnerty]

Can I ask a question?

What difference does it make if a guy fails to deliver a pitch after a steal of the last available base by the only baserunner on base at the time?

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

What difference does it make if a guy fails to deliver a pitch after a steal of the last available base by the only baserunner on base at the time?

The runner was on third base at the time of the pitch. Even if the runner actually crosses the plate before the pitcher releases the ball he still has not scored. If the pitch was batted foul the runner would be returned to third base. If it was strike 3 for out 3 then the run would not score. As you can see the runner just passing the plate does not mean he has scored. So if the pitcher balks after the runner has crossed the plate the umpire should still call time and enforce the balk even though it really doesn't change anything on the field.

And what the scorer scored it doesn't matter. The scorer isn't allowed to "nick" balks. The scorer writes down when the umpire calls a balk. If you read the definition of a stolen base you will see that this play would be ruled a SB had no balk been called. A similar play would be R1 who starts running towards second while the pitcher just stands there. The pitcher drops the ball just before R1 gets to second base. On the field it doesn't matter if the balk is called or not, R1 is going to be on second base. But it does matter for the statistics as R1 would not be credited with a stolen base because he advanced on a balk.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by LDUB

The runner was on third base at the time of the pitch. Even if the runner actually crosses the plate before the pitcher releases the ball he still has not scored. If the pitch was batted foul the runner would be returned to third base. If it was strike 3 for out 3 then the run would not score. As you can see the runner just passing the plate does not mean he has scored. So if the pitcher balks after the runner has crossed the plate the umpire should still call time and enforce the balk even though it really doesn't change anything on the field.

And what the scorer scored it doesn't matter. The scorer isn't allowed to "nick" balks. The scorer writes down when the umpire calls a balk. If you read the definition of a stolen base you will see that this play would be ruled a SB had no balk been called. A similar play would be R1 who starts running towards second while the pitcher just stands there. The pitcher drops the ball just before R1 gets to second base. On the field it doesn't matter if the balk is called or not, R1 is going to be on second base. But it does matter for the statistics as R1 would not be credited with a stolen base because he advanced on a balk.

You mean to tell me that you're going to pick on my choice of baseball slang! You're kidding! What difference could it make to use the word nicked?

And you're kidding about the play too, right? The umpire should still call time and enforce the balk? Yeah? The guy stole home and nothing else happened. How can a balk be called, scored or whatever you do or say? We're talking about this one play with one runner on third who stole home before anything could happen or be called. It's about this one play and not a bunch of convoluted scenarios.

What is all of this other stuff regarding?

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

And you're kidding about the play too, right? The umpire should still call time and enforce the balk? Yeah? The guy stole home and nothing else happened. How can a balk be called, scored or whatever you do or say? We're talking about this one play with one runner on third who stole home before anything could happen or be called. It's about this one play and not a bunch of convoluted scenarios.

I didn't realize nick was baseball slang. It is not listed in this baseball slang dictionary Baseball Slang Dictionary From I-O: More Baseball Slang Terms From 'In the Hole' to 'Outpitch' | Suite101.com

Just because R3 touches the plate before the pitch is released does not mean he has stolen the base. If the pitch is batted foul it is not a stolen base. If the pitch is strike 3 with 2 outs then it is not a stolen base.

A balk is somewhat different as you could have a balk and a stolen base on the same play. But yes, the umpire should call time and enforce the balk. R3 is sliding in as F1 stops his motion. The guy did not steal third base before anything else happened as you claimed. He was on third base at the time of the pitch. You seed to be thinking that noting happened before he stole the base. But that is not what happened; the pitcher started his motion.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by LDUB

I didn't realize nick was baseball slang. It is not listed in this baseball slang dictionary Baseball Slang Dictionary From I-O: More Baseball Slang Terms From 'In the Hole' to 'Outpitch' | Suite101.com

It's in my baseball lexicon, and others', and you are really reaching. Don't pull a muscle.

Originally Posted by LDUB

Just because R3 touches the plate before the pitch is released does not mean he has stolen the base. If the pitch is batted foul it is not a stolen base. If the pitch is strike 3 with 2 outs then it is not a stolen base.

A balk is somewhat different as you could have a balk and a stolen base on the same play. But yes, the umpire should call time and enforce the balk. R3 is sliding in as F1 stops his motion. The guy did not steal third base before anything else happened as you claimed. He was on third base at the time of the pitch. You seed to be thinking that noting happened before he stole the base. But that is not what happened; the pitcher started his motion.

I never said he stole third base ... never. I said he stole home, which he did. There was no balk, there was no pitch, there was no other runner on, there weren't two strikes on the batter, the runner started at third, and he stole home before anything else happened.

Why, according to Official Baseball Rules, would an umpire call a balk on this play?

[TussAgee11]

Technically speaking it should have been a balk, no SB. And the official box score be damned

From a fan's perspective, a great play by the base runner. Something to get excited about, and not worth nitpicking over like SDS said.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

Why, according to Official Baseball Rules, would an umpire call a balk on this play?

8.05a. I don't really care, but you asked. He's still a runner until he has scored, and he hasn't scored until the play is completed, as mentioned above. So he has violated 8.05a.

As soon as he fails to pitch, "TIME". Score the runner. Scored on the balk, officially speaking.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Okay, Luke...what is the correct slang term for the official scorer charging a pitcher with an infraction? I couldn't find a listing in the Baseball Slang Dictionary. Aren't we allowed to use our own slang terms for anything we choose, including baseball? I'll bet you any amount of money that I know baseball slang terms that aren't listed in this dictionary.

Try to follow along: Kevin wasn't the official scorer that day. The official scorer did not charge a balk, and he did credit Cabrera with a stolen base. Kevin was at the game, but not the official scorer. The umpires did not call a balk on the play, whether correctly or incorrectly, otherwise the official scorer would have entered it that way in the scorebook, wouldn't he? So, why in the hell is everyone holding Kevin accountable for the decisions of both the umpires and the official scorer, when he is merely telling you what happened on the play, which resulted in Billingsley not completing his delivery after seeing Cabrera slide in safely?

[Kevin Finnerty]

I just broke my chair.