Abandonment???
Game last night I was BU. R2 so I am in C. BR hits grounder to short. Throw from short is low and not dug out by the first baseman. I call the runner safe. The runner apparently thought he was out and was walking back to the dugout where he was tagged (on the dugout side of the 1st base coaching box below the bag). I called him out. I got a mild argument for the O coach but nothing bad.
After the game I looked up abandonment in JR (which I don't have with me now) which says something to the effect that this would be abandonment if the BR has no intent of returning to the base. He had no intent until the first baseman ran over to tag him. Would this be abandonment? If not how much space and time would you give a BR to return to first? Thanks |
Was the rest of the team asleep, including the base coach? Maybe punch up your safe call to wake them? ;)
The tag is not valid, as the runner made no attempt to advance. So if F3 tags him and then he returns to the base, I've got him safe there. I seem to recollect for FED they haven't abandoned until they enter the dugout. Depending on the level, I might enforce the same way for OBR. But, as they say, you can't fix stupid. |
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-Josh |
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I agree, the safe sign seems weak here however, in OBR if you felt that the runner abandoned the bag, he is out. Period, end of discussion, that is the rule and bottom line we HTBT otherwise.
I certainly hope we don't get into a discussion of how far EXACTLY this play happened from the bag or dugout. "Officials judgement" call here. |
The offensive team was asleep as there was no 1st base coach. The game was played under OBR.
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I'm interpreting (although perhaps incorrectly) the runner is liable of being put out if he:
Am I off base with what 8-2-7 is saying? I think this rule nips in the butt the runner hanging out behind second for an unnecessary amount of time after overrunning first. -Josh |
I think the attempt to advance mainly applies to an overthrow on a play attempt at 1B. Runner thinks he can make it to 2B...then thinks twice and retreats to 1B...he is liable to be tagged out. J/R says that 1 step (or more) toward 2B qualifies at a Feint or attempt to advance.
If he's heading back to the dugout in OBR, he's out. A little more hairy for FED...esp with the courtesy runner issue. Could be the crappy end of the stick... |
In OBR, I am not going to signal anything on the tag. BR touched 1B so why would there be a tag? It is not an appeal.
Once I deem him far enough for abandonment, I will make the out call. No call on the tag, out call on the abandonment. And, if he goes to 1B before I call him out for abandonment, then no call still. |
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When in my judgement, he gives up his base. The rule is posted above.
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What does immediately mean to you? As soon as he stops his momentum? Halfway to his dugout? In his dugout? Is it situational? Since it just says "immediately", it is left up to interpretation at that point. For me, I would go with him being several steps beyond 1B on his way back to his dugout. But, I would also consider the situation. If I have the winning run on 3B, 2 outs and I know calling an out for abandonment after reaching the next base is a timing issue, I am not calling the abandonment out until R3 crosses so his run counts. I will give more leeway in this situation just to end the game and prevent extra innings. I may get flack for this but I will be the one going home when that run crosses. |
That's just it...this is pretty much umpire judgement other than at home plate where in OBR they give the hitter the "circle" and/or must make an immediate attempt to run to 1B when he's legally able to run to 1B. This is the type of call where we make the big bucks and the 1B coach is basically worthless and then they blame the umpire(s) for calling him out for abandonment.
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-Josh |
Yeah, game management...where we make the big bucks!
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A runner not "immediately" returning to 1st after attaining 1st is an appealable play (7.10c). If the BR is obviously heading toward his dugout, I will recognize the tag and bang him out. Similar situation where BR passes 1st and stops to remove all of his batting gear. If he or the base is tagged, he is out on appeal.
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A runner is "immediately" returning to 1B if he's not going somewhere else. No WAY I'd call a runner out for removing protective gear while off the base. That's a ticket back to the small diamond. |
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As far as a player removing his equipment off of the base ... .... let's say that the BR beats out a banger at first and stops 15 ft. behind the base. Instead of returning to first and then ridding himself of his gear, the BR stays at his stopped spot and "dis-equipments." (takes off his elbow and ankle protection) While this is happening, the defense now appeals by either tagging the BR or first base. How can you not uphold the appeal? The defense recognized that the BR did not fullfill his base running responsibilities. By ignoring this appropriate appeal, you are disregarding a rule, which we are there to enforce, and will create an even larger "sh*tstorm." I have never had to rule on this, but given the correct circumstances, I would uphold the appeal and deal with whatever objection that would result due to my ruling. Correctly upholding this appropriate appeal is no different than upholding any other appealable offence, such as a missed base or leaving too soon on a caught fly ball and should not be considered as being an OOO. I agree with the post that said that upholding the appeal based on the BR taking his gear off while returning to first would be inappropriate. That would be different from the example I described above. |
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Reinstatement
A runner is allowed to overrun 1B 1-way. If he returns to the HP side of 1B, he subject to being tagged out. Ball is live. Abandonment applies when he leaves the baseline {his basepath}, so the call may be delayed until he progresses a reasonable distance away from 1B and does not make an effort to return to base immediately, moving towards a defensive position or the dugout.
:p When in doubt, always call em out! :p |
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Better leave that 'tool' in your box... |
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Take care
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if you want to talk about appeals then begin another thread. Pete Booth |
Abandonment is correct call as runner left the base / basepath. Totally a judgement call by umpire. It would be considered desertion if batter-runner did same before reaching 1B. NFHS BR would have to reach deadball territory..Pro BR would only have to leave dirt area of plate.
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My FYI was directed towards SAump's misunderstanding of what I had posted earlier concerning said appeal in a discussion within this thread with SDS, LMan and mbyron. |
"Can't we all just get along." - Rodney King
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:D |
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