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David M Wed Jul 29, 2009 07:21am

Abandonment???
 
Game last night I was BU. R2 so I am in C. BR hits grounder to short. Throw from short is low and not dug out by the first baseman. I call the runner safe. The runner apparently thought he was out and was walking back to the dugout where he was tagged (on the dugout side of the 1st base coaching box below the bag). I called him out. I got a mild argument for the O coach but nothing bad.

After the game I looked up abandonment in JR (which I don't have with me now) which says something to the effect that this would be abandonment if the BR has no intent of returning to the base. He had no intent until the first baseman ran over to tag him.

Would this be abandonment? If not how much space and time would you give a BR to return to first?

Thanks

mbyron Wed Jul 29, 2009 07:26am

Was the rest of the team asleep, including the base coach? Maybe punch up your safe call to wake them? ;)

The tag is not valid, as the runner made no attempt to advance. So if F3 tags him and then he returns to the base, I've got him safe there.

I seem to recollect for FED they haven't abandoned until they enter the dugout. Depending on the level, I might enforce the same way for OBR. But, as they say, you can't fix stupid.

bob jenkins Wed Jul 29, 2009 07:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by David M (Post 617628)
and was walking back to the dugout where he was tagged (on the dugout side of the 1st base coaching box below the bag).

That's far enough for abandonment for me.

jdmara Wed Jul 29, 2009 07:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by David M (Post 617628)
Game last night I was BU. R2 so I am in C. BR hits grounder to short. Throw from short is low and not dug out by the first baseman. I call the runner safe. The runner apparently thought he was out and was walking back to the dugout where he was tagged (on the dugout side of the 1st base coaching box below the bag). I called him out. I got a mild argument for the O coach but nothing bad.

After the game I looked up abandonment in JR (which I don't have with me now) which says something to the effect that this would be abandonment if the BR has no intent of returning to the base. He had no intent until the first baseman ran over to tag him.

Would this be abandonment? If not how much space and time would you give a BR to return to first?

Thanks

As I envision the situation, I agree that the runner is liable to being tagged out. As you know, the runner after overrunning first "may immediately return without liability of being put out provided he does not attempt or feint an advance to second" (NFHS 8-2-7). I believe the argument could very well be made that the runner, by going over to the first base coach, did not immediately return to 1b and is now liable to being tagged out.

-Josh

mbyron Wed Jul 29, 2009 08:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 617640)
As I envision the situation, I agree that the runner is liable to being tagged out. As you know, the runner after overrunning first "may immediately return without liability of being put out provided he does not attempt or feint an advance to second" (NFHS 8-2-7). I believe the argument could very well be made that the runner, by going over to the first base coach, did not immediately return to 1b and is now liable to being tagged out.

-Josh

Josh, you're not reading the the condition on the permission above. This runner made no move to 2B, and so he is still allowed to return to 1B (until you call him out for abandonment).

jicecone Wed Jul 29, 2009 08:25am

I agree, the safe sign seems weak here however, in OBR if you felt that the runner abandoned the bag, he is out. Period, end of discussion, that is the rule and bottom line we HTBT otherwise.

I certainly hope we don't get into a discussion of how far EXACTLY this play happened from the bag or dugout. "Officials judgement" call here.

David M Wed Jul 29, 2009 08:26am

The offensive team was asleep as there was no 1st base coach. The game was played under OBR.

jdmara Wed Jul 29, 2009 08:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 617640)
As I envision the situation, I agree that the runner is liable to being tagged out. As you know, the runner after overrunning first "may immediately return without liability of being put out provided he does not attempt or feint an advance to second" (NFHS 8-2-7). I believe the argument could very well be made that the runner, by going over to the first base coach, did not immediately return to 1b and is now liable to being tagged out.

-Josh

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 617641)
Josh, you're not reading the the condition on the permission above. This runner made no move to 2B, and so he is still allowed to return to 1B (until you call him out for abandonment).

I agree that it specifies "provided he does not attempt or feint an advance to second" as a qualifier to the root of the sentence ("may immediately return without liability of being put out"). But not immediately returning to first, in the judgment of the umpire, is subjective, of course. Perhaps I'm picking apart a sentence that doesn't need to be picked apart ;)

I'm interpreting (although perhaps incorrectly) the runner is liable of being put out if he:
  • Faints to Second
  • Attempts to advance
  • Does not return "immediately"

Am I off base with what 8-2-7 is saying? I think this rule nips in the butt the runner hanging out behind second for an unnecessary amount of time after overrunning first.

-Josh

johnnyg08 Wed Jul 29, 2009 08:58am

I think the attempt to advance mainly applies to an overthrow on a play attempt at 1B. Runner thinks he can make it to 2B...then thinks twice and retreats to 1B...he is liable to be tagged out. J/R says that 1 step (or more) toward 2B qualifies at a Feint or attempt to advance.

If he's heading back to the dugout in OBR, he's out. A little more hairy for FED...esp with the courtesy runner issue. Could be the crappy end of the stick...

GA Umpire Wed Jul 29, 2009 09:41am

In OBR, I am not going to signal anything on the tag. BR touched 1B so why would there be a tag? It is not an appeal.

Once I deem him far enough for abandonment, I will make the out call.

No call on the tag, out call on the abandonment. And, if he goes to 1B before I call him out for abandonment, then no call still.

David M Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by GA Umpire (Post 617657)
In OBR, I am not going to signal anything on the tag. BR touched 1B so why would there be a tag? It is not an appeal.

Once I deem him far enough for abandonment, I will make the out call.

No call on the tag, out call on the abandonment. And, if he goes to 1B before I call him out for abandonment, then no call still.

At what point do call him out for abandonment?

johnnyg08 Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:37am

When in my judgement, he gives up his base. The rule is posted above.

GA Umpire Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by David M (Post 617665)
At what point do call him out for abandonment?

That is a debatable question.

What does immediately mean to you? As soon as he stops his momentum? Halfway to his dugout? In his dugout? Is it situational?

Since it just says "immediately", it is left up to interpretation at that point. For me, I would go with him being several steps beyond 1B on his way back to his dugout. But, I would also consider the situation.

If I have the winning run on 3B, 2 outs and I know calling an out for abandonment after reaching the next base is a timing issue, I am not calling the abandonment out until R3 crosses so his run counts. I will give more leeway in this situation just to end the game and prevent extra innings.

I may get flack for this but I will be the one going home when that run crosses.

johnnyg08 Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:49am

That's just it...this is pretty much umpire judgement other than at home plate where in OBR they give the hitter the "circle" and/or must make an immediate attempt to run to 1B when he's legally able to run to 1B. This is the type of call where we make the big bucks and the 1B coach is basically worthless and then they blame the umpire(s) for calling him out for abandonment.

jdmara Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by GA Umpire (Post 617675)
That is a debatable question.

What does immediately mean to you? As soon as he stops his momentum? Halfway to his dugout? In his dugout? Is it situational?

Since it just says "immediately", it is left up to interpretation at that point. For me, I would go with him being several steps beyond 1B on his way back to his dugout. But, I would also consider the situation.

If I have the winning run on 3B, 2 outs and I know calling an out for abandonment after reaching the next base is a timing issue, I am not calling the abandonment out until R3 crosses so his run counts. I will give more leeway in this situation just to end the game and prevent extra innings.

I may get flack for this but I will be the one going home when that run crosses.

So you're saying it depends on the situation. What kind of crap is that?? Oh yeah, it's called game management :D *For all of you that didn't catch that, I was being sarcastic in the first two sentences*

-Josh

johnnyg08 Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:05am

Yeah, game management...where we make the big bucks!

UmpTTS43 Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:12am

A runner not "immediately" returning to 1st after attaining 1st is an appealable play (7.10c). If the BR is obviously heading toward his dugout, I will recognize the tag and bang him out. Similar situation where BR passes 1st and stops to remove all of his batting gear. If he or the base is tagged, he is out on appeal.

Quote:

7.08j Any runner is out when ..... He fails to return at once to first base after overrunning or oversliding that base. If he attempts to run to second he is out when tagged. If, after overrunning or oversliding first base he starts toward the dugout, or toward his position, and fails to return to first base at once, he is out, on appeal, when he or the base is tagged;

7.08a2 PLAY. Runner believing he is called out on a tag at first or third base starts for the dugout and progresses a reasonable distance still indicating by his actions that he is out, shall be declared out for abandoning the bases.

LMan Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 617691)
Similar situation where BR passes 1st and stops to remove all of his batting gear. If he or the base is tagged, he is out on appeal.

Ouch...bet that makes for a nice sh*tstorm.

UmpTTS43 Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMan (Post 617702)
Ouch...bet that makes for a nice sh*tstorm.

I'm sure it would be. I have never called it, but it is something in my toolbox that I have at my disposal should I ever "deem" it necessary to call it. :cool:

mbyron Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 617691)
A runner not "immediately" returning to 1st after attaining 1st is an appealable play (7.10c). If the BR is obviously heading toward his dugout, I will recognize the tag and bang him out.

What tag? An out for abandonment does not require a tag. In the OP, if F3 tags the runner, he's not far enough away to have abandoned. If that tips him off to return to 1B, we play on.

A runner is "immediately" returning to 1B if he's not going somewhere else. No WAY I'd call a runner out for removing protective gear while off the base. That's a ticket back to the small diamond.

SanDiegoSteve Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 617720)
A runner is "immediately" returning to 1B if he's not going somewhere else. No WAY I'd call a runner out for removing protective gear while off the base. That's a ticket back to the small diamond.

Amen, brother. How OOO would you have to be to call a runner out for taking off his gear on his way back to the base?

johnnyg08 Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve (Post 617736)
Amen, brother. How OOO would you have to be to call a runner out for taking off his gear on his way back to the base?

Interesting this would come up, I just read about it yesterday...J/R says something about the runner being able to be tagged out if he does so in front of the base.

mbyron Wed Jul 29, 2009 01:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve (Post 617736)
Amen, brother. How OOO would you have to be to call a runner out for taking off his gear on his way back to the base?

Hm. That's at least twice we've agreed in the last 7 days. Is it 2012?

SanDiegoSteve Wed Jul 29, 2009 01:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 617748)
Hm. That's at least twice we've agreed in the last 7 days. Is it 2012?

If it is, armaggedon out of here now!!!:eek:

UmpTTS43 Wed Jul 29, 2009 06:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 617720)
What tag? An out for abandonment does not require a tag. In the OP, if F3 tags the runner, he's not far enough away to have abandoned. If that tips him off to return to 1B, we play on.

A runner is "immediately" returning to 1B if he's not going somewhere else. No WAY I'd call a runner out for removing protective gear while off the base. That's a ticket back to the small diamond.

If the BR is heading towards the dugout, he is not in the act of "immediately" returning to first base. If tagged, as in the original OP, he is out on appeal. In order to get the out for abandonment, you have to judge that he has progressed a "reasonable distance" away from the bag. It is possible that you don't think that the BR has progressed a "reasonable distance" in order to get the out for abandonment, but you can still get the appealable out for not "immediately" returning to first base. This appealable infraction is for first base only, where abandonment can happen at any base. From the original OP, we can have two different out calls for two different rules violations.

As far as a player removing his equipment off of the base ...

.... let's say that the BR beats out a banger at first and stops 15 ft. behind the base. Instead of returning to first and then ridding himself of his gear, the BR stays at his stopped spot and "dis-equipments." (takes off his elbow and ankle protection) While this is happening, the defense now appeals by either tagging the BR or first base. How can you not uphold the appeal? The defense recognized that the BR did not fullfill his base running responsibilities. By ignoring this appropriate appeal, you are disregarding a rule, which we are there to enforce, and will create an even larger "sh*tstorm."

I have never had to rule on this, but given the correct circumstances, I would uphold the appeal and deal with whatever objection that would result due to my ruling. Correctly upholding this appropriate appeal is no different than upholding any other appealable offence, such as a missed base or leaving too soon on a caught fly ball and should not be considered as being an OOO.

I agree with the post that said that upholding the appeal based on the BR taking his gear off while returning to first would be inappropriate. That would be different from the example I described above.

SanDiegoSteve Wed Jul 29, 2009 06:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 617809)
.... let's say that the BR beats out a banger at first and stops 15 ft. behind the base. Instead of returning to first and then ridding himself of his gear, the BR stays at his stopped spot and "dis-equipments." (takes off his elbow and ankle protection) While this is happening, the defense now appeals by either tagging the BR or first base. How can you not uphold the appeal? The defense recognized that the BR did not fullfill his base running responsibilities. By ignoring this appropriate appeal, you are disregarding a rule, which we are there to enforce, and will create an even larger "sh*tstorm."

I have never had to rule on this, but given the correct circumstances, I would uphold the appeal and deal with whatever objection that would result due to my ruling. Correctly upholding this appropriate appeal is no different than upholding any other appealable offence, such as a missed base or leaving too soon on a caught fly ball and should not be considered as being an OOO.

It is common protocol for the batter runner to rid himself of his equipment without having to request Time to do it after overrunning first base. It is different at the other bases, because he isn't allowed to overrun them to start with, so he has to request and be granted Time in order to step off the base and remove his gear, hand them to the bat boy, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 617809)
I agree with the post that said that upholding the appeal based on the BR taking his gear off while returning to first would be inappropriate. That would be different from the example I described above.

This statement contradicts what you just said. The example above is he stops 15 ft. past the base, and in this one he is walking back to the base. They are exactly the same thing. At some place, he is going to stop, unstrap the leg guard or elbow guard, and then return to the base. Who care if it's down the line or near the base, as long as he then returns immediately to the base?

UmpTTS43 Wed Jul 29, 2009 08:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve (Post 617814)
It is common protocol for the batter runner to rid himself of his equipment without having to request Time to do it after overrunning first base. It is different at the other bases, because he isn't allowed to overrun them to start with, so he has to request and be granted Time in order to step off the base and remove his gear, hand them to the bat boy, etc.

I see no reason why a player would have to step off of a base to remove any protective equipment. The main reason "time" is given is so that someone can come get the gear from the player versus the player simply handing it to the first base coach.


Quote:

This statement contradicts what you just said. The example above is he stops 15 ft. past the base, and in this one he is walking back to the base. They are exactly the same thing. At some place, he is going to stop, unstrap the leg guard or elbow guard, and then return to the base. Who care if it's down the line or near the base, as long as he then returns immediately to the base?
I apologize if I did not fully explain my situation clearly enough. In my opinion, there is a distinct differerence between standing beyond first base, taking unecessary time to remove all of the gear and then walking back towards first base versus walking towards first while removing the gear including stopping for a brief moment to release his ankle protection. In the first example, he is not returning "immediately" whereas in the second example he is. I am of the opinion that there is sufficient "relaxed" action to remove the gear once he goes back to first base.

SAump Wed Jul 29, 2009 09:30pm

Reinstatement
 
A runner is allowed to overrun 1B 1-way. If he returns to the HP side of 1B, he subject to being tagged out. Ball is live. Abandonment applies when he leaves the baseline {his basepath}, so the call may be delayed until he progresses a reasonable distance away from 1B and does not make an effort to return to base immediately, moving towards a defensive position or the dugout.

:p When in doubt, always call em out! :p

Matt Wed Jul 29, 2009 09:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve (Post 617736)
Amen, brother. How OOO would you have to be to call a runner out for taking off his gear on his way back to the base?

Anything other than his pants and jockstrap, that is...

LMan Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 617705)
I'm sure it would be. I have never called it, but it is something in my toolbox that I have at my disposal should I ever "deem" it necessary to call it. :cool:

YGBSM. :rolleyes:

Better leave that 'tool' in your box...

UmpTTS43 Thu Jul 30, 2009 03:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMan (Post 617985)
YGBSM. :rolleyes:

Better leave that 'tool' in your box...

This is not a call that is voluntarily made by the umpire. The ruling is a result of the defense appealing the infraction. My ruling concerning this infraction will take into count different criteria, including whether or not it is a valid appeal, whether or not the defense is nit picking, whether or not the offense is a PITA, or as in the case of the original OP, the BR is in the process of abandoning his base, etc. If this appeal ever comes up, and it never has in over 1000 games of all levels, I will make an appropriate ruling. Even though I have not had the opportunity to rule on this appeal, I know that there are acceptable and unacceptable ways to handle situations that involve this particular rule. So no, I am sh*tting you and this "tool" will remain in my toolbox.

SanDiegoSteve Thu Jul 30, 2009 05:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 618130)
My ruling concerning this infraction will take into count different criteria, including whether or not it is a valid appeal, whether or not the defense is nit picking, whether or not the offense is a PITA, or as in the case of the original OP, the BR is in the process of abandoning his base, etc.

So, you plan on just making things up as you go, huh?:rolleyes:

LMan Fri Jul 31, 2009 01:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 618130)
and this "tool" will remain in my toolbox.

ah, good, you are taking my advice, then.

SAump Fri Jul 31, 2009 02:33pm

Take care
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 618130)
This is not a call that is voluntarily made by the umpire. The ruling is a result of the defense appealing the infraction. My ruling concerning this infraction will take into count different criteria, including whether or not it is a valid appeal, whether or not the defense is nit picking, whether or not the offense is a PITA, or as in the case of the original OP, the BR is in the process of abandoning his base, etc. If this appeal ever comes up, and it never has in over 1000 games of all levels, I will make an appropriate ruling. Even though I have not had the opportunity to rule on this appeal, I know that there are acceptable and unacceptable ways to handle situations that involve this particular rule. So no, I am sh*tting you and this "tool" will remain in my toolbox.

May be using the wrong word because abandonment is not an appeal option under rule 7.10. BTW, most cases of abandonment take place in the last inning. See recent Ohio ruling in playoff game {link still available?} where B/R took part in celebration before immediately proceeding to 1B. Abandonment call overturned in interesting protest decision.

UmpTTS43 Mon Aug 03, 2009 02:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAump (Post 618278)
May be using the wrong word because abandonment is not an appeal option under rule 7.10. BTW, most cases of abandonment take place in the last inning. See recent Ohio ruling in playoff game {link still available?} where B/R took part in celebration before immediately proceeding to 1B. Abandonment call overturned in interesting protest decision.

FYI, we weren't talking about abandonment.

PeteBooth Mon Aug 03, 2009 03:37pm

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 618651)
FYI, we weren't talking about abandonment.


From the OP

Quote:

Game last night I was BU. R2 so I am in C. BR hits grounder to short. Throw from short is low and not dug out by the first baseman. I call the runner safe. The runner apparently thought he was out and was walking back to the dugout where he was tagged (on the dugout side of the 1st base coaching box below the bag). I called him out. I got a mild argument for the O coach but nothing bad.

After the game I looked up abandonment in JR (which I don't have with me now) which says something to the effect that this would be abandonment if the BR has no intent of returning to the base. He had no intent until the first baseman ran over to tag him.
Yes we are talking about abandonment at least that is what the poster wanted to know.

if you want to talk about appeals then begin another thread.

Pete Booth

#888 Mon Aug 03, 2009 03:45pm

Abandonment is correct call as runner left the base / basepath. Totally a judgement call by umpire. It would be considered desertion if batter-runner did same before reaching 1B. NFHS BR would have to reach deadball territory..Pro BR would only have to leave dirt area of plate.

UmpTTS43 Mon Aug 03, 2009 04:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteBooth (Post 618669)
Yes we are talking about abandonment at least that is what the poster wanted to know.

if you want to talk about appeals then begin another thread.

Pete Booth

Maybe if you would read the entire discussion concerning the original OP, you would see that I was discussing that an appeal could have been a reasonable option for the out call, as well as abandonment.

My FYI was directed towards SAump's misunderstanding of what I had posted earlier concerning said appeal in a discussion within this thread with SDS, LMan and mbyron.

SanDiegoSteve Mon Aug 03, 2009 06:36pm

"Can't we all just get along." - Rodney King

UmpTTS43 Mon Aug 03, 2009 07:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve (Post 618689)
"Can't we all just get along." - Rodney King

I concur.

:D


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