Would you ask for help?

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Why would you ask? You *know* that if *any crewmember* had seen the ball hit the foot, they would've already killed it. So, you *know* that they are not going to call the ball foul later, after the fact.

Are you doing it just so Gardenhire doesn't explode? Frankly, I don't think that's a good enough reason.

No, I would never, ever ask on this. Let him explode. I'll write the report.

--Rich

If the coach asked in the proper fashion why not just go down to 3rd base and ask...if he says it didn't hit his foot or I didn't get a great look at it then you tell the manager and you look like you are approachable...if you don't ask you look like a harda$$! This would take 30 seconds and I think more times than not the manager would have greater respect for you for asking, he doesn't ask and now the manager goes nuts and gets thrown out and it takes another 5 minutes to get back to playing ball.

[kcg NC2Ablu]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

If the coach asked in the proper fashion why not just go down to 3rd base and ask...if he says it didn't hit his foot or I didn't get a great look at it then you tell the manager and you look like you are approachable...if you don't ask you look like a harda$$! This would take 30 seconds and I think more times than not the manager would have greater respect for you for asking, he doesn't ask and now the manager goes nuts and gets thrown out and it takes another 5 minutes to get back to playing ball.

so you want to ask your partner for help on something he already didnt see or he would have called it. THAT sounds like the waste of time here. I bet you go for help on EVERYTHING... your approach is user friendly... but so is a doormat when its raining and muddy outside.

[GoodwillRef]

[QUOTE=kcg NC2Ablu;611597] bet you go for help on EVERYTHING... your approach is user friendly... QUOTE]

If I think going for help is the right thing to do or if it will help me defuse a potential situation with a coach/manager I will go "talk" to my partner.

[Rich]

[QUOTE=GoodwillRef;611602]

Originally Posted by kcg NC2Ablu

bet you go for help on EVERYTHING... your approach is user friendly... QUOTE]

If I think going for help is the right thing to do or if it will help me defuse a potential situation with a coach/manager I will go "talk" to my partner.

And then when a subsequent crew I'm on is 100% sure of a call and the coach goes fishing for help, he'll say, "but GoodwillRef asked - he always asks."

Sorry, I go out of my way to be friendly and approachable, but ceding to requests like this do no good at all to the game.

If a coach wants to go, who am I to stop him?

[johnnyg08]

I think you can still be approachable and not go to your partner even though coach asks nicely. Just because coach treats you like a human being, doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to do everything he says. He comes unglued, I still may not ask.

I will reply as others have said "if my partner saw it foul" then he would've called it. I think that if the umpire doesn't follow this path, he (U3) gets baited into "changing his call" by the coach.

[kcg NC2Ablu]

[QUOTE=GoodwillRef;611602]

Originally Posted by kcg NC2Ablu

bet you go for help on EVERYTHING... your approach is user friendly... QUOTE]

If I think going for help is the right thing to do or if it will help me defuse a potential situation with a coach/manager I will go "talk" to my partner.

Then you are wrong. walking out to your partner is like hey coach Ill do anything for you . now that coach OWNS you he is going to expect that any time he asks you will go and now if you dont he will pitch a fit and you will probably try to keep him in the game when its your own self perpetuating friendly attitude that makes him go off like that.

[Rich]

I was working a DH at a D3 school about an hour from Madison. First game, my plate. R1/R2. Smash down the third base line, pretty much on the line. Fielded on backhand by F5. I point fair, he steps on third, throws to first, end of inning. Coach starts in - "no WAY that's fair"...on and on. I'm already halfway up the first base line, coach decides to join me. He continues on and on and on. I finally make it clear after he repeats himself a few times that he needs to get back to the dugout and he leaves, but not before stopping in front of his (pretty full bleachers) to pick up a bat, whereupon he starts screaming and demonstrating again. I eject him. He charges me. Partner plays rodeo clown.

Game 2, we get a rundown between first and second. They take about 3 more throws than necessary and F3 gets in the way without the ball, R1 slows dramatically to go around F3, I call obstruction, the OTHER coach comes out and almost gets ejected. I probably should've run him, but I really didn't want to run both head coaches from a DH, so he probably got a pass he didn't deserve.

Assignor was there during the obstruction. He called the next day and asked me if anyone would've argued had I not made the call. I told him "I don't know, but it was textbook obstruction during a rundown." He said he didn't think anyone would've argued had I not called it. I asked him whether I should let that guide how I called the game. Then he asked about the ejection in the first game. He asked if I hustled to the line and got a good look at the ball.

Now, this guy umpires and has for over 30 years. He knows EXACTLY when kind of a look the plate umpire gets on a rocket hit down the line. I told him -- as good a look as any plate umpire can get on that situation. My instinct was fair and that was the call. I asked him what kind of look the third base coach gets from his box. Then he asked again why I ejected the coach. I read from my ejection report word for word.

So I guess I see where the OP is coming from. I mean, I think one is expected to bend over backwards and do the splits to be accommodating to the teams around here even considering the fact that these coaches are on the bottom rung of college baseball thinking they're all the next Earl Weaver. And don't expect any backing for a situation. I was told flat out "don't expect that I'm going to back you cause you're the umpire."

So I quit working college baseball in the area and probably won't for quite some time. It's OK, really. It's only 2 months of baseball and it's nice not having someone beg me to work 1PM DH during the week when I'm working my day job. For $185 for 5-7 hours work for 18 innings. With no travel money. And yes, many of my HS games are far better played.

[kcg NC2Ablu]

Thats another problem all together... you didnt have an umpire advocate for an assignor. This has been a growing problem in the sport because people are to afraid to stand up to someone and protect their umpires. I have been one to protect my umpires where I assign and people dont like it at first. However later on they begin to respect and understand it. I mean I wont defend a guy who has done something completely idiotic and admits to it or I find out from a thrid party how it went down. Bottom line I do some serious investigating when that kind of thing goes down and I defend my umpires rather than hang them out to dry. We get enough of that as part of the job

[Rich]

Originally Posted by kcg NC2Ablu

Thats another problem all together... you didnt have an umpire advocate for an assignor. This has been a growing problem in the sport because people are to afraid to stand up to someone and protect their umpires. I have been one to protect my umpires where I assign and people dont like it at first. However later on they begin to respect and understand it. I mean I wont defend a guy who has done something completely idiotic and admits to it or I find out from a thrid party how it went down. Bottom line I do some serious investigating when that kind of thing goes down and I defend my umpires rather than hang them out to dry. We get enough of that as part of the job

Umpire advocate? Shoot, this guy may as well say "I was an umpire, but I work for the coaches now."

[David B]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I was working a DH at a D3 school about an hour from Madison. First game, my plate. R1/R2. Smash down the third base line, pretty much on the line. Fielded on backhand by F5. I point fair, he steps on third, throws to first, end of inning. Coach starts in - "no WAY that's fair"...on and on. I'm already halfway up the first base line, coach decides to join me. He continues on and on and on. I finally make it clear after he repeats himself a few times that he needs to get back to the dugout and he leaves, but not before stopping in front of his (pretty full bleachers) to pick up a bat, whereupon he starts screaming and demonstrating again. I eject him. He charges me. Partner plays rodeo clown.

Game 2, we get a rundown between first and second. They take about 3 more throws than necessary and F3 gets in the way without the ball, R1 slows dramatically to go around F3, I call obstruction, the OTHER coach comes out and almost gets ejected. I probably should've run him, but I really didn't want to run both head coaches from a DH, so he probably got a pass he didn't deserve.

Assignor was there during the obstruction. He called the next day and asked me if anyone would've argued had I not made the call. I told him "I don't know, but it was textbook obstruction during a rundown." He said he didn't think anyone would've argued had I not called it. I asked him whether I should let that guide how I called the game. Then he asked about the ejection in the first game. He asked if I hustled to the line and got a good look at the ball.

Now, this guy umpires and has for over 30 years. He knows EXACTLY when kind of a look the plate umpire gets on a rocket hit down the line. I told him -- as good a look as any plate umpire can get on that situation. My instinct was fair and that was the call. I asked him what kind of look the third base coach gets from his box. Then he asked again why I ejected the coach. I read from my ejection report word for word.

So I guess I see where the OP is coming from. I mean, I think one is expected to bend over backwards and do the splits to be accommodating to the teams around here even considering the fact that these coaches are on the bottom rung of college baseball thinking they're all the next Earl Weaver. And don't expect any backing for a situation. I was told flat out "don't expect that I'm going to back you cause you're the umpire."

So I quit working college baseball in the area and probably won't for quite some time. It's OK, really. It's only 2 months of baseball and it's nice not having someone beg me to work 1PM DH during the week when I'm working my day job. For $185 for 5-7 hours work for 18 innings. With no travel money. And yes, many of my HS games are far better played.

I agree totally Rich. I also quit calling college games several years ago because I also had an assisgnor who expected us to bend over and bow to the coaches.

I would not do it and he started cutting my schedule, so I just quit and went back to doing HS which in our area is better baseball anyway. (and the games are played at night so it doesn't affect my job)

When I was in TX, the coaches wanted us to come and tryout (do a scrimmage game) before we were allowed to call their games at certain schools. I told my assisgnor, I don't want to work at those schools (even if they were D1) simply because I'm not going to cater to a coach.

I'm sure there are many umpires who will "go along" with this philosophy just to be able to do the games, I'm sorry I just can't do that. My integrity is more important than trying to babysit college coaches who are making "way too much money".

Thanks
David

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

If the coach asked in the proper fashion why not just go down to 3rd base and ask...if he says it didn't hit his foot or I didn't get a great look at it then you tell the manager and you look like you are approachable...if you don't ask you look like a harda$$! This would take 30 seconds and I think more times than not the manager would have greater respect for you for asking, he doesn't ask and now the manager goes nuts and gets thrown out and it takes another 5 minutes to get back to playing ball.

Because I am approachable. He approached me and I, in a very calm manner, reminded him that had U3 seen the ball he would've called it immediately.

Being approachable doesn't mean doing everything the coach wants. Being approachable doesn't mean getting help on every situation when asked.

If it means the coach feels he needs to go nuts and get run, well, that's on him. Doesn't mean I'm going to hand the poopy end of the stick to U3.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Because I am approachable. He approached me and I, in a very calm manner, reminded him that had U3 seen the ball he would've called it immediately.

Being approachable doesn't mean doing everything the coach wants. Being approachable doesn't mean getting help on every situation when asked.

If it means the coach feels he needs to go nuts and get run, well, that's on him. Doesn't mean I'm going to hand the poopy end of the stick to U3.

I didn't say we need to get help on every situation...there are a handful of strange situations that IMO asking for help is beneficial for game management. I am thinking that some of us are scared to ask because we might get information we don't want to hear..."we made a mistake." We all make mistakes and bad calls, we are human.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

I didn't say we need to get help on every situation...there are a handful of strange situations that IMO asking for help is beneficial for game management. I am thinking that some of us are scared to ask because we might get information we don't want to hear..."we made a mistake." We all make mistakes and bad calls, we are human.

Goodness, I have no problem overturning myself. I know I'm not perfect.

However, in this situation, I already know the answer before I even ask the question. We are trained as base umpires, if we are 100% sure that a ball hit the batter to give the plate umpire a second to get it himself and then, if not, to step in and call time and let the plate guy determine if the contact was in or out of the box.

To me, this is an opportunity to calmly explain that to the coach. "Ron, if another umpire had seen that hit the batter, he would've called it. It's what we do. It's what we've always done."

If Gardenhire (who is a knob) decides to explode after this, well, it's not my problem. Goodbye.

(The worst piece of umpiring last night, BTW, was overturning the PU's foul call in the CLE game. Wedge getting tossed was the right thing for him to do -- I would've gotten run, too.)

[Kevin Finnerty]

"[Coach's name], if he saw it hit his foot, he would have killed it. We have no need to ask for help on that, [coach's name]."

Period.

If there is something that can and should be discussed with a partner, I readily and willingly ask. Not on that kind of thing. They'll declare ownership of you if you cave like that.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

there are a handful of strange situations that IMO asking for help is beneficial for game management.

The batter hitting the baqll off his foot, or near his foot, hardly qualifies as a strange situation.

I agree with the others -- explain the mechanic to the coach and then get back to the game (including removing whatever obstacles there are to getting back to the game).