Would you ask for help?

[GoodwillRef]

[QUOTE=kcg NC2Ablu;611597] bet you go for help on EVERYTHING... your approach is user friendly... QUOTE]

If I think going for help is the right thing to do or if it will help me defuse a potential situation with a coach/manager I will go "talk" to my partner.

[Rich]

[QUOTE=GoodwillRef;611602]

Originally Posted by kcg NC2Ablu

bet you go for help on EVERYTHING... your approach is user friendly... QUOTE]

If I think going for help is the right thing to do or if it will help me defuse a potential situation with a coach/manager I will go "talk" to my partner.

And then when a subsequent crew I'm on is 100% sure of a call and the coach goes fishing for help, he'll say, "but GoodwillRef asked - he always asks."

Sorry, I go out of my way to be friendly and approachable, but ceding to requests like this do no good at all to the game.

If a coach wants to go, who am I to stop him?

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Because I am approachable. He approached me and I, in a very calm manner, reminded him that had U3 seen the ball he would've called it immediately.

Being approachable doesn't mean doing everything the coach wants. Being approachable doesn't mean getting help on every situation when asked.

If it means the coach feels he needs to go nuts and get run, well, that's on him. Doesn't mean I'm going to hand the poopy end of the stick to U3.

I didn't say we need to get help on every situation...there are a handful of strange situations that IMO asking for help is beneficial for game management. I am thinking that some of us are scared to ask because we might get information we don't want to hear..."we made a mistake." We all make mistakes and bad calls, we are human.

[johnnyg08]

I think you can still be approachable and not go to your partner even though coach asks nicely. Just because coach treats you like a human being, doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to do everything he says. He comes unglued, I still may not ask.

I will reply as others have said "if my partner saw it foul" then he would've called it. I think that if the umpire doesn't follow this path, he (U3) gets baited into "changing his call" by the coach.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Because I am approachable. He approached me and I, in a very calm manner, reminded him that had U3 seen the ball he would've called it immediately.

Being approachable doesn't mean doing everything the coach wants. Being approachable doesn't mean getting help on every situation when asked.

If it means the coach feels he needs to go nuts and get run, well, that's on him. Doesn't mean I'm going to hand the poopy end of the stick to U3.

But Rich, even explaining that the BU would kill it if he saw anything isn't going to help. This same situation happened to me twice in a game on Sunday - once in the top and again in the bottom of the 5th. Each time the batter pounds one down in front of him. I'm blocked and don't see any contact, nor does my partner. In each case the B/R was thrown out at first and in each case the player was ejected before he made it back to his dugout.

After the first incident the manager asked me to get help. I explained that the BU would kill it right away if he saw anything. The manager accepted it but his player just kept on arguing.

Similar situation with the second one. Manager asked me to get help. I tell him that it wasn't an appealable play in the top of the inning and it's not appealable now. He's okay but his player drops an F-bomb.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

I didn't say we need to get help on every situation...there are a handful of strange situations that IMO asking for help is beneficial for game management. I am thinking that some of us are scared to ask because we might get information we don't want to hear..."we made a mistake." We all make mistakes and bad calls, we are human.

Goodness, I have no problem overturning myself. I know I'm not perfect.

However, in this situation, I already know the answer before I even ask the question. We are trained as base umpires, if we are 100% sure that a ball hit the batter to give the plate umpire a second to get it himself and then, if not, to step in and call time and let the plate guy determine if the contact was in or out of the box.

To me, this is an opportunity to calmly explain that to the coach. "Ron, if another umpire had seen that hit the batter, he would've called it. It's what we do. It's what we've always done."

If Gardenhire (who is a knob) decides to explode after this, well, it's not my problem. Goodbye.

(The worst piece of umpiring last night, BTW, was overturning the PU's foul call in the CLE game. Wedge getting tossed was the right thing for him to do -- I would've gotten run, too.)

[Rich]

Originally Posted by waltjp

But Rich, even explaining that the BU would kill it if he saw anything isn't going to help. This same situation happened to me twice in a game on Sunday - once in the top and again in the bottom of the 5th. Each time the batter pounds one down in front of him. I'm blocked and don't see any contact, nor does my partner. In each case the B/R was thrown out at first and in each case the player was ejected before he made it back to his dugout.

After the first incident the manager asked me to get help. I explained that the BU would kill it right away if he saw anything. The manager accepted it but his player just kept on arguing.

Similar situation with the second one. Manager asked me to get help. I tell him that it wasn't an appealable play in the top of the inning and it's not appealable now. He's okay but his player drops an F-bomb.

It worked with the right person, didn't it?

[Kevin Finnerty]

"[Coach's name], if he saw it hit his foot, he would have killed it. We have no need to ask for help on that, [coach's name]."

Period.

If there is something that can and should be discussed with a partner, I readily and willingly ask. Not on that kind of thing. They'll declare ownership of you if you cave like that.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It worked with the right person, didn't it?

You got me there!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

there are a handful of strange situations that IMO asking for help is beneficial for game management.

The batter hitting the baqll off his foot, or near his foot, hardly qualifies as a strange situation.

I agree with the others -- explain the mechanic to the coach and then get back to the game (including removing whatever obstacles there are to getting back to the game).

[Chris_Hickman]

At the professional level...... I am not going to my partner. At the college level, I would explain to the coach that if my partner(s) saw it off his foot, they would have called foul. Now if the coach keeps insisting on me getting help, I'm going to tell him " ok, I will get help, but you (coach) are going back to your dugout ( or coaching box )...and whatever we come up with, that's the way it's gonna be. You are not going to come back out and discuss it any further. I just got the coach back in the dugout. I want to keep these guys in the game as much as possible. Now if he doesnt like the conclusion we came up with and he comes back out.... I will warn him with the stop sign (hand) not to come out. If he continues...run um'. 90% of the time, they are cool. They just want you to get together. This tactic would never work in the PRO game....I would never even think about doin' in it there.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Chris_Hickman

At the professional level...... I am not going to my partner. At the college level, I would explain to the coach that if my partner(s) saw it off his foot, they would have called foul. Now if the coach keeps insisting on me getting help, I'm going to tell him " ok, I will get help, but you (coach) are going back to your dugout ( or coaching box )...and whatever we come up with, that's the way it's gonna be. You are not going to come back out and discuss it any further. I just got the coach back in the dugout. I want to keep these guys in the game as much as possible. Now if he doesnt like the conclusion we came up with and he comes back out.... I will warn him with the stop sign (hand) not to come out. If he continues...run um'. 90% of the time, they are cool. They just want you to get together. This tactic would never work in the PRO game....I would never even think about doin' in it there.

I just don't get the "keep them in the game at any costs" mentality at the college level. We already bend over backwards as much as possible. It's almost like those coaches just can't deal with somebody telling them "no."

[Steve M]

No, don't ask. What you're really asking your partner is "are you not doing your job?" Like has been said, if partner is sure he saw that, he'll call it.

[TussAgee11]

I had the same exact situation, I was BU. I did not kill the play, and PU came to me for appeasement when questioned by batter and then manager (after getting his batter out of the way).

I told him I had nothing, and was pretty sure of it as well.

When PU came out with nothing, who do you think they now yelled at??? Its easier if they just get pissed at "stubborn PU" he deals, then I move in if necessary to play rodeo clown. As it ended up, I had a player yelling across the field at me, me giving the stop sign, and the PU cleaning up the mess.

They're likely to get ticked either way. Might as well act like we know what we're doing from the start.

[DG]

Announcers really should get some training on the game they are announcing.

Oh well...