Would you ask for help?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

If the coach asked in the proper fashion why not just go down to 3rd base and ask...if he says it didn't hit his foot or I didn't get a great look at it then you tell the manager and you look like you are approachable...if you don't ask you look like a harda$$! This would take 30 seconds and I think more times than not the manager would have greater respect for you for asking, he doesn't ask and now the manager goes nuts and gets thrown out and it takes another 5 minutes to get back to playing ball.

Because I am approachable. He approached me and I, in a very calm manner, reminded him that had U3 seen the ball he would've called it immediately.

Being approachable doesn't mean doing everything the coach wants. Being approachable doesn't mean getting help on every situation when asked.

If it means the coach feels he needs to go nuts and get run, well, that's on him. Doesn't mean I'm going to hand the poopy end of the stick to U3.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Because I am approachable. He approached me and I, in a very calm manner, reminded him that had U3 seen the ball he would've called it immediately.

Being approachable doesn't mean doing everything the coach wants. Being approachable doesn't mean getting help on every situation when asked.

If it means the coach feels he needs to go nuts and get run, well, that's on him. Doesn't mean I'm going to hand the poopy end of the stick to U3.

I didn't say we need to get help on every situation...there are a handful of strange situations that IMO asking for help is beneficial for game management. I am thinking that some of us are scared to ask because we might get information we don't want to hear..."we made a mistake." We all make mistakes and bad calls, we are human.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

I didn't say we need to get help on every situation...there are a handful of strange situations that IMO asking for help is beneficial for game management. I am thinking that some of us are scared to ask because we might get information we don't want to hear..."we made a mistake." We all make mistakes and bad calls, we are human.

Goodness, I have no problem overturning myself. I know I'm not perfect.

However, in this situation, I already know the answer before I even ask the question. We are trained as base umpires, if we are 100% sure that a ball hit the batter to give the plate umpire a second to get it himself and then, if not, to step in and call time and let the plate guy determine if the contact was in or out of the box.

To me, this is an opportunity to calmly explain that to the coach. "Ron, if another umpire had seen that hit the batter, he would've called it. It's what we do. It's what we've always done."

If Gardenhire (who is a knob) decides to explode after this, well, it's not my problem. Goodbye.

(The worst piece of umpiring last night, BTW, was overturning the PU's foul call in the CLE game. Wedge getting tossed was the right thing for him to do -- I would've gotten run, too.)

[Kevin Finnerty]

"[Coach's name], if he saw it hit his foot, he would have killed it. We have no need to ask for help on that, [coach's name]."

Period.

If there is something that can and should be discussed with a partner, I readily and willingly ask. Not on that kind of thing. They'll declare ownership of you if you cave like that.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

there are a handful of strange situations that IMO asking for help is beneficial for game management.

The batter hitting the baqll off his foot, or near his foot, hardly qualifies as a strange situation.

I agree with the others -- explain the mechanic to the coach and then get back to the game (including removing whatever obstacles there are to getting back to the game).

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Because I am approachable. He approached me and I, in a very calm manner, reminded him that had U3 seen the ball he would've called it immediately.

Being approachable doesn't mean doing everything the coach wants. Being approachable doesn't mean getting help on every situation when asked.

If it means the coach feels he needs to go nuts and get run, well, that's on him. Doesn't mean I'm going to hand the poopy end of the stick to U3.

But Rich, even explaining that the BU would kill it if he saw anything isn't going to help. This same situation happened to me twice in a game on Sunday - once in the top and again in the bottom of the 5th. Each time the batter pounds one down in front of him. I'm blocked and don't see any contact, nor does my partner. In each case the B/R was thrown out at first and in each case the player was ejected before he made it back to his dugout.

After the first incident the manager asked me to get help. I explained that the BU would kill it right away if he saw anything. The manager accepted it but his player just kept on arguing.

Similar situation with the second one. Manager asked me to get help. I tell him that it wasn't an appealable play in the top of the inning and it's not appealable now. He's okay but his player drops an F-bomb.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by waltjp

But Rich, even explaining that the BU would kill it if he saw anything isn't going to help. This same situation happened to me twice in a game on Sunday - once in the top and again in the bottom of the 5th. Each time the batter pounds one down in front of him. I'm blocked and don't see any contact, nor does my partner. In each case the B/R was thrown out at first and in each case the player was ejected before he made it back to his dugout.

After the first incident the manager asked me to get help. I explained that the BU would kill it right away if he saw anything. The manager accepted it but his player just kept on arguing.

Similar situation with the second one. Manager asked me to get help. I tell him that it wasn't an appealable play in the top of the inning and it's not appealable now. He's okay but his player drops an F-bomb.

It worked with the right person, didn't it?

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

If the coach asked in the proper fashion why not just go down to 3rd base and ask...if he says it didn't hit his foot or I didn't get a great look at it then you tell the manager and you look like you are approachable...if you don't ask you look like a harda$$! This would take 30 seconds and I think more times than not the manager would have greater respect for you for asking, he doesn't ask and now the manager goes nuts and gets thrown out and it takes another 5 minutes to get back to playing ball.

Read slowly and try to keep up:

At MLB the mechanic is that the BU WILL kill the ball if he sees it hit the batter. The fact that the BU did not kill the ball means that he did not see it hit the batter. Why on earth should the PU ask a BU a question that has already been answered?

Any BU who comes to me on that is getting his butt chewed while he buys the beer after the game.

[Steve M]

No, don't ask. What you're really asking your partner is "are you not doing your job?" Like has been said, if partner is sure he saw that, he'll call it.

[TussAgee11]

I had the same exact situation, I was BU. I did not kill the play, and PU came to me for appeasement when questioned by batter and then manager (after getting his batter out of the way).

I told him I had nothing, and was pretty sure of it as well.

When PU came out with nothing, who do you think they now yelled at??? Its easier if they just get pissed at "stubborn PU" he deals, then I move in if necessary to play rodeo clown. As it ended up, I had a player yelling across the field at me, me giving the stop sign, and the PU cleaning up the mess.

They're likely to get ticked either way. Might as well act like we know what we're doing from the start.

[DG]

Announcers really should get some training on the game they are announcing.

Oh well...

[Kevin Finnerty]

They're third party observers interpreting the players' actions. They don't know how to play, coach or umpire, and really shouldn't. Now, occasionally, you get a guy who's really a sharp baseball guy as a color man, but never does the play-by-play guy seem like an expert. Some of the sharpest baseball guys I have heard do games are Bob Brenly, Mike Krukow, Don Drysdale and Orel Hershiser. The sharpest pure baseball man/broadcaster I ever heard was the Angels color man in the late-80s, a guy named Joe Torre.

Clowns like Tim McCarver and Joe Morgan are obviously standouts due to their national profile. But some of the local guys (we have to sit through Mark Gubicza in So. California) are abominable. The most telling thing I ever heard said about Joe Morgan and his vaunted baseball knowledge is that he never even smelled a manager's job. He never even coached. Because he can't fool real players, only some fans. Same with McCarver.

It's a rare breed that knows every part of the game. Two guys I'm familiar with came close: Torre and Brenly (managers and catchers).

If there was ever a great retired umpire who could effectively broadcast color commentary, it would be an interesting thing to hear.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Why do MLB umpires refuse to ask for help from crewmates?

That statement is tottaly absurd. Did you see the game the other night when a Foul call was changed to fair?

the umpires got together

2 yrs. ago Mets vs. Braves - Jose Reyes hit a sinking line drive to F7 that was ruled a catch (it was not) the umpires got together and the call was changed.

There are MANY MANY examples where MLB umpires ask for help.

The others have answered. The reason the PU didn't go for help because if anyone of his crew-mates saw the ball hit the batter they would have "killed it". Since they did not "kill the ball" no need to go to them.

Pete Booth

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Twins manager Ron Gardenhire questions HP umpire Larry Vanover that the ball hit is batter's foot, he was put out by the 1st basemen, he is asking very nicely. He then asked Vanover if he would ask 3rd base umpire Charlie Reliford for help and Vanover tells him 'NO" and then he throws his hat and goes crazy and gets thrown out of the game. Why do MLB umpires refuse to ask for help from crewmates? Replay shows that the ball did hit his foot and should had been a fould ball. Would you ask the 3rd base umpire for help on this play? I would.

I think this is a rule that should be changed. It's a difficult call to make, is missed (one way or the other) frequently, and no one can hit the ball off their foot intentionally to gain an advantage.

So, I think the rule should be that if the ball goes sharply and directly from the bat to the batter, the ball is in play the same as if it hadn't hit the batter (that is, it becomes fair or foul depending on what happens next), except the ball is no longer in flight.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think this is a rule that should be changed. It's a difficult call to make, is missed (one way or the other) frequently, and no one can hit the ball off their foot intentionally to gain an advantage.

So, I think the rule should be that if the ball goes sharply and directly from the bat to the batter, the ball is in play the same as if it hadn't hit the batter (that is, it becomes fair or foul depending on what happens next), except the ball is no longer in flight.

That would be a brutal rule. Batter breaks his leg after the ball hit him and now is out at 1B.

That would be nothing but trouble. But, speeds up the game b/c the catcher just has to tag the runner now. No need to throw it. And, imagine how many more DPs would occur b/c the catcher would just tag HP and tag the runner who is lying on the ground in pain next to him.