Would you ask for help?

GoodwillRef · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 30, 2009, 12:11pm

Twins manager Ron Gardenhire questions HP umpire Larry Vanover that the ball hit is batter's foot, he was put out by the 1st basemen, he is asking very nicely. He then asked Vanover if he would ask 3rd base umpire Charlie Reliford for help and Vanover tells him 'NO" and then he throws his hat and goes crazy and gets thrown out of the game. Why do MLB umpires refuse to ask for help from crewmates? Replay shows that the ball did hit his foot and should had been a fould ball. Would you ask the 3rd base umpire for help on this play? I would.

Ump Rube · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 30, 2009, 12:24pm

As always video helps: Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | MIN@KC: Gardenhire gets thrown out for arguing a call - Video | twinsbaseball.com: Multimedia

It most every game that I have worked my partner and I have pre-gamed that if the BU sees the ball hit the batter in the box to kill the play immediately. I don't know if that is correct (good idea) or not, but if the crew has it set that way then Vanover wouldn't need to check with Reliford, because Reliford would have killed the play then.

I don't know how the announcers "know" that Reliford wants to help out on the call. It doesn't look like he standing there yelling, "Ask me, ask me, ask me!" but what's new when it comes to the TV guys.

umpjong · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 30, 2009, 12:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Twins manager Ron Gardenhire questions HP umpire Larry Vanover that the ball hit is batter's foot, he was put out by the 1st basemen, he is asking very nicely. He then asked Vanover if he would ask 3rd base umpire Charlie Reliford for help and Vanover tells him 'NO" and then he throws his hat and goes crazy and gets thrown out of the game. Why do MLB umpires refuse to ask for help from crewmates? Replay shows that the ball did hit his foot and should had been a fould ball. Would you ask the 3rd base umpire for help on this play? I would.

That is one of those plays where if Reliford had seen it, he would have called it immediately. Training from H.S. to pro umpires now have this standard. Vanover probably told him that he didnt have to ask his partner because if he (Reliford or any other crew member) had seen it they would have called it.

mbyron · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 30, 2009, 12:26pm

To answer your question: yes, I would.

BUT:

1. I don't do MLB.
2. I have no idea what Gardenhire really said.
3. I do know that Gardenhire is a notorious PITA.

Rich · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 30, 2009, 12:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Twins manager Ron Gardenhire questions HP umpire Larry Vanover that the ball hit is batter's foot, he was put out by the 1st basemen, he is asking very nicely. He then asked Vanover if he would ask 3rd base umpire Charlie Reliford for help and Vanover tells him 'NO" and then he throws his hat and goes crazy and gets thrown out of the game. Why do MLB umpires refuse to ask for help from crewmates? Replay shows that the ball did hit his foot and should had been a fould ball. Would you ask the 3rd base umpire for help on this play? I would.

Why would you ask? You *know* that if *any crewmember* had seen the ball hit the foot, they would've already killed it. So, you *know* that they are not going to call the ball foul later, after the fact.

Are you doing it just so Gardenhire doesn't explode? Frankly, I don't think that's a good enough reason.

No, I would never, ever ask on this. Let him explode. I'll write the report.

--Rich

GA Umpire · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 30, 2009, 12:58pm

If any umpire sees the ball is foul, they should call it. So, I wouldn't go for help b/c I wouldn't have to. If my partner(s) saw it, then they would call it and I would already know it was foul.

No asking and see you later.

kcg NC2Ablu · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 30, 2009, 01:09pm

No help needed. The others should have called it if they saw it so why ask?

outathm · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 30, 2009, 01:12pm

If the base guys had seen it, they would have called it. Asking for help is just an appeasement move, not a good idea at any level.

johnnyg08 · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 30, 2009, 01:22pm

I agree with the other posters on here who said, "if he saw it he would've called it."

Why ask him, he already ruled?

kcg NC2Ablu · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 30, 2009, 01:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by outathm

If the base guys had seen it, they would have called it. Asking for help is just an appeasement move, not a good idea at any level.

agreed...or should I say RATIFIED!

dash_riprock · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 30, 2009, 01:30pm

If BU sees the ball hit the batter (and I mean 100%), he should call "TIME" only, and let PU decide if it was fair or foul.

kcg NC2Ablu · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 30, 2009, 01:39pm

if the ball hits the batter its just a dead ball.... why does it matter if it was fair or foul... if the batter is hit in or out of the box is the only variable to this situation where the plate umpire has to determine anything after the ball has been declared dead by the BU

GoodwillRef · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 30, 2009, 01:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Why would you ask? You *know* that if *any crewmember* had seen the ball hit the foot, they would've already killed it. So, you *know* that they are not going to call the ball foul later, after the fact.

Are you doing it just so Gardenhire doesn't explode? Frankly, I don't think that's a good enough reason.

No, I would never, ever ask on this. Let him explode. I'll write the report.

--Rich

If the coach asked in the proper fashion why not just go down to 3rd base and ask...if he says it didn't hit his foot or I didn't get a great look at it then you tell the manager and you look like you are approachable...if you don't ask you look like a harda$$! This would take 30 seconds and I think more times than not the manager would have greater respect for you for asking, he doesn't ask and now the manager goes nuts and gets thrown out and it takes another 5 minutes to get back to playing ball.

kcg NC2Ablu · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 30, 2009, 01:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

If the coach asked in the proper fashion why not just go down to 3rd base and ask...if he says it didn't hit his foot or I didn't get a great look at it then you tell the manager and you look like you are approachable...if you don't ask you look like a harda$$! This would take 30 seconds and I think more times than not the manager would have greater respect for you for asking, he doesn't ask and now the manager goes nuts and gets thrown out and it takes another 5 minutes to get back to playing ball.

so you want to ask your partner for help on something he already didnt see or he would have called it. THAT sounds like the waste of time here. I bet you go for help on EVERYTHING... your approach is user friendly... but so is a doormat when its raining and muddy outside.

Rich · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 30, 2009, 01:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

If the coach asked in the proper fashion why not just go down to 3rd base and ask...if he says it didn't hit his foot or I didn't get a great look at it then you tell the manager and you look like you are approachable...if you don't ask you look like a harda$$! This would take 30 seconds and I think more times than not the manager would have greater respect for you for asking, he doesn't ask and now the manager goes nuts and gets thrown out and it takes another 5 minutes to get back to playing ball.

Because I am approachable. He approached me and I, in a very calm manner, reminded him that had U3 seen the ball he would've called it immediately.

Being approachable doesn't mean doing everything the coach wants. Being approachable doesn't mean getting help on every situation when asked.

If it means the coach feels he needs to go nuts and get run, well, that's on him. Doesn't mean I'm going to hand the poopy end of the stick to U3.