Horrible Mechanics

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Agreed with Dash and Rich. The play "changed" from a "caught fly" to a "base hit" -- and on a base hit with R1 and R2, PU stays home.

The play changed on a possibly "trapped" ball. If it is an obvious base hit, then yes, PU stays at home b/c of the timing of everything. But, on a play where there is a possibility of being caught and it is in question up until F8 comes up with the ball, PU stands around and waits to see?

In the OP, there was a question(strong possibility of being caught) so why would the PU be standing at HP to see if caught or not? And, it sounds like the play was read wrong and the PU got caught standing at HP instead of anticipating the play at 3B.

I would rather be on top of 3B letting my partner know I am there than to be standing at HP and guess wrong about the play.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

When the ball is hit, PU busts it to the library to read the play. IF the ball is caught, AND the runner tags, AND there is a play on him at 3rd (fielder with the ball + the runner), then get to the cutout. If the ball is not caught, go back home. If there is no play, go back home. PU does not have the force or any other play on the bases.

So, as the F8 drops the ball, PU turns around and goes to HP. Then, the throw from F8 is off line and creates a TAG situation. PU could have been there on a very close FORCE play and take the TAG play. Instead, he chose to go to HP and just watch the entire play.

Maybe this is just a timing issue which is better to see how it all unfolded rather than talking about it. B/c I envision F8 about to catch it and the runners should be tagging with PU in position just in case he comes to 3B. Then, with the PU in position, F8 drops it. Why would the PU now go to HP when he is in great position for any call at 3B especially if F8 elects to go to 2B and turning the play at 3B into a TAG play? And, once the play concludes at 3B, he goes to HP for any play if the ball gets away. Just like he would on a TAG play.

[Reffing Rev.]

Possible catch...
I'm coming to 3rd, "I'm at 3rd!"
Once I said I'm at 3rd, I'm at 3rd.
If the ball is dropped, I'm still at 3rd.
I'm not bailing on BU who now has two other runners to watch.

Most of my pre-games go something like this ... with runners on, ball leaves the infield, PU has lead guy at 3rd and then everone else is BU's. And BU always has BR at 3rd.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

The play changed on a possibly "trapped" ball. If it is an obvious base hit, then yes, PU stays at home b/c of the timing of everything. But, on a play where there is a possibility of being caught and it is in question up until F8 comes up with the ball, PU stands around and waits to see?

In the OP, there was a question(strong possibility of being caught) so why would the PU be standing at HP to see if caught or not? And, it sounds like the play was read wrong and the PU got caught standing at HP instead of anticipating the play at 3B.

I would rather be on top of 3B letting my partner know I am there than to be standing at HP and guess wrong about the play.

But you are not supposed to be "at third" unless there are three components to this -- a catch, a runner, and a ball. Since there was no catch, you are no more than 50 feet down the line, in the library (in foul ground), and you are heading home. You are not at the plate waiting for the catch -- you are at the same place you'd be on a base hit with R1 -- in the library waiting to see if there's a runner and a ball coming to third. If not, you get no closer to third and stay in foul ground.

By tag play, I mean the runner tagged, not a tag with the glove, BTW.

If we worked together and you came up on that, we'd likely have a double call cause once I signal "no catch" I know my plate guy is home and I'm taking any plate at any base.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Possible catch...
I'm coming to 3rd, "I'm at 3rd!"
Once I said I'm at 3rd, I'm at 3rd.
If the ball is dropped, I'm still at 3rd.
I'm not bailing on BU who now has two other runners to watch.

Most of my pre-games go something like this ... with runners on, ball leaves the infield, PU has lead guy at 3rd and then everone else is BU's. And BU always has BR at 3rd.

You are not AT THIRD. The proper voice is: "I've got third if he tags." Go to the library and wait.

Once the ball is caught and there's a runner and throw, THEN it's "I've got third! I've got third!" as you bust into fair ground into the cutout.

Once the ball drops, your place is at the plate in case R2 tries to score on the base hit.

All of this is pretty basic 2-man stuff, really.

[umpjong]

The real problem here is the deviation from proscribed mechanics, whether pro or CCA. The reason there are standards is so that you know what is expected of you when it is expected. Once in a while, if you feel the need to help your partner with one of his responsibilities (according to mechanics manuals) then please make sure that you communicate this with him, and dont expect your responsibilities to be adjusted just because you take on additional duties.

If you are working with me and the ball drops on this play, you may yell that you are staying at 3rd, but I'm yelling back, no,no,no thats mine, you got the plate and I would slide over to make the call at third if necessary.

[Reffing Rev.]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

You are not AT THIRD. The proper voice is: "I've got third if he tags." Go to the library and wait.

Once the ball is caught and there's a runner and throw, THEN it's "I've got third! I've got third!" as you bust into fair ground into the cutout.

Once the ball drops, your place is at the plate in case R2 tries to score on the base hit.

All of this is pretty basic 2-man stuff, really.

I agree that is what the book says...
I disagree its the best way to cover this play. (and you are free to disagree with me)
I have enough intelligence to in the context of a proper pre-game adjust the mechanics to better cover the play.

If there is no play at third then I'm still able to move to cover the play at the plate, and if there is a play at 3rd then I'm able to cover there. I can move both directions from your library. And in any case I've alleviated R2 from my partner. Especially since he has R1 who may or may not have been trying to tag and BR who has probably rounded the bag by now too.

Now if we ever worked together in a pregame you told me you wanted 3rd in that case, thats fine, its yours. It is after all by the book.

When my partner doesn't show up until after the first pitch, I go by the book - no pregame.

If my partner does not have the ability to ammend the book's mechanics then I go by the book.

What I am saying is in the context of a proper pre-game, this is how we ammend the mechanics to cover this play.

I've never had a double call at 3rd on a play like this. In fact only once have I ever had a problem. When my partner was BU and wanted to do it by the book, so in pregame we agreed everything by the book. Fly ball to center everyone tagging, ball hit the center fielder's glove and landed half a step in front of him he fired to 3rd. By the book BU's call, only he didn't get it. He looked at me with that puppy-dog-just-relieved-himself-on-your-pool-table-look. So I bailed him out. That play in our local discussion group is why almost all of us ammend our mechanics.

[njdevs00cup]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

So, as the F8 drops the ball, PU turns around and goes to HP. Then, the throw from F8 is off line and creates a TAG situation. PU could have been there on a very close FORCE play and take the TAG play. Instead, he chose to go to HP and just watch the entire play.

Maybe this is just a timing issue which is better to see how it all unfolded rather than talking about it. B/c I envision F8 about to catch it and the runners should be tagging with PU in position just in case he comes to 3B. Then, with the PU in position, F8 drops it. Why would the PU now go to HP when he is in great position for any call at 3B especially if F8 elects to go to 2B and turning the play at 3B into a TAG play? And, once the play concludes at 3B, he goes to HP for any play if the ball gets away. Just like he would on a TAG play.

Could you imagine the s**thouse situation we would of had if I decided to deviate from the mechanics we discussed during the pregame and made a force out call at 3B on catch. Situations like this are the exact reason a thorough pre-game is necessary. In this situation, no verbal or signal for a catch, I stay in the library. Brush up on your mechanics and discuss situations such as this during pregame.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by njdevs00cup

Could you imagine the s**thouse situation we would of had if I decided to deviate from the mechanics we discussed during the pregame and made a force out call at 3B on catch. Situations like this are the exact reason a thorough pre-game is necessary. In this situation, no verbal or signal for a catch, I stay in the library. Brush up on your mechanics and discuss situations such as this during pregame.

So let me get this straight. You didn't cover this and you are telling me to cover it. I guess I should learn from your mistake apparently. And, it apparently wasn't a force play so why weren't you at 3B if he tagged up? And, maybe it wasn't a trouble play b/c the book does say no need to signal on an obvious catch. Hmmmmmmm... You are coming at me when you were the one who didn't cover 3B on a play.

Wonder why I have never had a "double" call at 3B and my partners have never wondered if I was covering a play? Maybe it is b/c I communicate with them even if they don't with me.

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

What I am saying is in the context of a proper pre-game, this is how we ammend the mechanics to cover this play.

Just be aware that if you are being evaluated, you will be dinged big time for deviating from the prescribed mechanics. The folks that wrote them have been doing this a lot longer than we have. And if you aspire to move up I would suggest you stick with the manuals........ Just a recommendation...

[Rich]

Originally Posted by umpjong

Just be aware that if you are being evaluated, you will be dinged big time for deviating from the prescribed mechanics. The folks that wrote them have been doing this a lot longer than we have. And if you aspire to move up I would suggest you stick with the manuals........ Just a recommendation...

Personally, I don't care about evaluations. I don't have people watching me work around here and I know more than the people they'd get anyway.

I care more when a plate guy has happy feet and feels like he needs to help in places where it's not called for. There's absolutely no need for the PU in this situation once the ball drops. The play is a force play and the umpire is in the working area behind the mound and can adjust and get an angle on a throw to any base. If the throw is bad and forces a tag, it's another step and a lean and a great angle.

However, if the ball drops and F7 kicks it and R2 goes to the plate, now the PU, instead of being at the point of the plate (where he'd be if he went home the second the ball hit the ground) -- now he has to scramble back in fair ground and make a call on the run. Or if the ball gets through F5 towards DBT we have zero umpires that can take the ball to the DBT line, which is fine if it's necessary. Here, it's not.

If a ding would be in order, it would be labeled "false hustle."

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

I agree that is what the book says...
I disagree its the best way to cover this play. (and you are free to disagree with me)

Okay, I disagree and here is why:

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

I have enough intelligence to in the context of a proper pre-game adjust the mechanics to better cover the play.

This is the problem. You use one set of mechanics, confuse your partner, he tries using it with a different partner. Pretty soon, you have too many different ways of doing what should be STANDARDIZED throughout the baseball world.

The best way to cover the play is the way the mechanics say, and that is to go to the library, read the book, go home if it is not a catch/tag/advance. This is the only time PU has 3rd on this play. He needs to retreat home on a base hit, whether a clean hit or a trapped ball, whatever. This is the best coverage on this play. The only time the PU should have to bust as$ home from the cutout is on an overthrow at 3rd after a tag from R2 at second. Otherwise, the PU shouldn't be anywhere in the vicinity.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Personally, I don't care about evaluations. I don't have people watching me work around here and I know more than the people they'd get anyway.

Amen on that one.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I care more when a plate guy has happy feet and feels like he needs to help in places where it's not called for.

My biggest pet peeve while I'm the BU is to have the PU come up the 3rd base line when he isn't supposed to. Like on a naked triple, and I'm chugging into 3rd, look up and see the PU flying up the line about to enter the cut. That frosts my poptarts, I tell ya! Here I'm busting my butt from A all the way around, well ahead of the runner, and here this guy is assuming I can't run or something. I make sure to give them a look that shoots daggers, then talk to them about it later.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

If a ding would be in order, it would be labeled "false hustle."

Yes, false hustle is exactly what it is. Just like it is false hustle for the PU to run all the way up the 1st base line past the 45ft. line on a ground ball with no runners on. Instead of coming to a set position as the throw approaches F3, the false hustler continues running toward first base to give the appearance that he's a real jackrabbit. All the coaches oooh and aaah about how he hustles, but he isn't set to see the play he's running up there to watch. I see it all too often, especially from the young "fit and trim" umpires trying to show off their speed.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Okay, I disagree and here is why:

This is the problem. You use one set of mechanics, confuse your partner, he tries using it with a different partner. Pretty soon, you have too many different ways of doing what should be STANDARDIZED throughout the baseball world.

The best way to cover the play is the way the mechanics say, and that is to go to the library, read the book, go home if it is not a catch/tag/advance. This is the only time PU has 3rd on this play. He needs to retreat home on a base hit, whether a clean hit or a trapped ball, whatever. This is the best coverage on this play. The only time the PU should have to bust as$ home from the cutout is on an overthrow at 3rd after a tag from R2 at second. Otherwise, the PU shouldn't be anywhere in the vicinity.

I'll have to agree with this. Go figure. I agree with Steve on something. Even though I think the PU is in a very good position when he comes up for the play at 3B, it will cause less confusion. I don't see it as "false hustle" b/c it is covering as many bases as possible with only 2 guys.

However, it does remain consistent and until they change it to how I think this type of play should be handled, then I will remain with the book and even then, I would be with the book. And, I am assuming this is a generic way to just cover all plays instead of trying to pick and choose when a deviation is needed.

[PeteBooth]

The main problem with your OP is this

Batter hits a bloop into center field, which F8 charges and appeared to trap. BU gives no signal and no verbal.

No one knows what is going on. If the BU gave no signal it appears he has NO CLUE along with the Players and YOU on what's going on.

Each of us has our OWN responsibilities out there.

As both TEE and Rich pointed out with R1/R2 the PU covers third base on the tag UP UNLESS it's a CLEAR CUT Single which from the OP it was not.

Here is what has me puzzled

Apparently BU ruled the ball was caught because F8 threw the ball to F3 to double off R1.

You say APPARENTLY BU Ruled. What's that! Either we have a catch or no catch. We do not have a MAYBE.

Based upon the STRICT wording of your OP it appears NOTHING was called because of your phrase APPARENTLY BU ruled. Therefore, EXACTLY what happened on this play? Was a call on the catch / no catch EVER made?

If R1 was doubled off with an apparent no call on the catch / no catch where was the OM because surely he is going to get tossed.

IMO, once we KNOW what happened then perhaps your question about what to do can be answered more effectively.

Pete Booth

[njdevs00cup]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

So let me get this straight. You didn't cover this and you are telling me to cover it. I guess I should learn from your mistake apparently. And, it apparently wasn't a force play so why weren't you at 3B if he tagged up? And, maybe it wasn't a trouble play b/c the book does say no need to signal on an obvious catch. Hmmmmmmm... You are coming at me when you were the one who didn't cover 3B on a play.

Wonder why I have never had a "double" call at 3B and my partners have never wondered if I was covering a play? Maybe it is b/c I communicate with them even if they don't with me.

I'm am standing on the dirt a top the hill of dirt you have dug up. A trouble ball caught or uncaught requires a signal of catch or no catch. All involved, umpires, runners and coaches base their actions upon whether the ball was caught or not.