This Bothers Me, and we Won! (Hands part of bat again.)

[More Cowbell]

Ok guys you were awesome for this dad last time. What do you think about this, and again, sorry for any terminology booting...still learning. 13U tourney, my son asked to fill in, FED rues I think. 3-3, bottom of seventh, bases loaded, 2-2 count. Batter swings, misses; PU rules ball struck hand then:

* time is called. PU gives batter first base, runners advance, run scores; we "win" and jump up and down etc. I'm thinking, "Ummm that ain't right." Other manager goes nuts, umps confer (two man crew) then:

* the obviously more experienced FU (is that right term?) says to our manager after lenghty conference with partner, "Coach, ball hit his hand on a swing. That's a strike." Call changed to "out," game ends again, now in a tie. But.....our manager is freaking out just a bit and his staff, saying stuff like, "The hand is part of the bat! Did they change that rule? Etc." I think, "Wait a minute, even though we didn't win, they did get it right." Not so fast. The tourney director is summoned, and after long delay, he comes over and even gestures with his hands and says, "Ball hit hand...part of bat...foul ball..."

* Everyone back to their places. You know what comes next: first pitch, base hit, we "win" for the second time. I probably shouldn't have, but I went to their dugot and said, "You guys got screwed, sorry man!" I would just hate for that to happen to us. You know how the baseball karma gods are; I hope they were sleeping...we might play this same team tomorrow in the finals. A parent who agreed with me said, "One of the coaches said he played AA ball and the hand is part of the bat...it's a special consideration..." I answered, "But I read The Officail Forum! We got a gift." I felt like asking the ump who got it right how he could let them overrule the correct call, but I didn't.

Two questions: 1.) Should I tell our manager the correct call to protect the same scenario from happening against us...? 2.) When a ball is swung on, missed, but hits hand, is it a dead ball batter out, or an uncaught third strike and batter can run to first? (My gut says dead ball, but I'm not sure.)

Thanks again in advance. Isn't the "hand part of bat thing" one of the umping 101 rules every ump should know? (I need to get a life methinks.)
MC

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

Two questions: 1.) Should I tell our manager the correct call to protect the same scenario from happening against us...? 2.) When a ball is swung on, missed, but hits hand, is it a dead ball batter out, or an uncaught third strike and batter can run to first? (My gut says dead ball, but I'm not sure.)

Thanks again in advance. Isn't the "hand part of bat thing" one of the umping 101 rules every ump should know? (I need to get a life methinks.)
MC

1) That depends on your relationship with the manager and how likely he is to believe you, even if you show him the rule. (Note that you'll be trying to "prove a negative" which is hard to do -- there's no rule that specifically says, "the hands are NOT part of the bat.")

2) Any time the pitch hits the batter, it's a dead ball. It might also be an award of first (the usual HBP), a ball (the batter made no attempt to get out of the way) or a strike (ball was in the strike zone or the batter swung). It's never a foul ball or a fair ball.

3) Yes, the umps should know this. So, too, should the coaches, the former AA player, etc. It is one of the "top 40 myths".

[More Cowbell]

As a non-ump, I wonder how this "myth" keeps going...it's like the one "turn to the left" after running past first and the coach YELLS tag him tag him!! and the blue rings him up.

I just met the coach today, my boy was helping out, but it turns out we went to high school together. Maybe I should tell him, "Hey there's this really helpful forum....."

Should I have discreetly approached the blue and reminded him? I know that the ump who got it right was upset when the "director" overturned the decision. I know both guys are studying up before the next game..

[dash_riprock]

The tournament director "overturned" the umpire? Not in my game. And if he insists, I'm outta there on the spot.

[mbyron]

You stated that this game was played under HS rules. Here's a case play to take with you next time.

Originally Posted by 2009 NFHS Case Book

7.3.4 SITUATION B: B1 is at bat with a three-ball, two-strike count. He swings
at the next pitch and the ball hits his right fist and, without contacting the bat,
goes into foul territory. F2 retrieves the ball and throws to F3 who is covering first
base and tags B1 with the ball. RULING: As soon as the ball hit the batter it
became dead. B1 is declared out [for strike 3]. To have the play ruled a foul ball, the ball would
have to have hit the bat of B1 before it touched his hand.

[More Cowbell]

The Case Play says it all.....thanks. I wonder if the "director" would understand this; it's pretty black and white. I can't believe the ump actually went looking for the guy. The ump who made the right call, I could tell, knew he was right, but didn't want to make a stand, I suppose.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

The tourney director is summoned, and after long delay, he comes over and even gestures with his hands and says, "Ball hit hand...part of bat...foul ball..."

I have worked tournaments where the director was the protest committee. Perhaps, there was an unannounced protest, which is why the director was summoned. Also, perhaps he meant to say, "Ball hit bat...part of hand....foul ball...", but got the sequence wrong.

Not very likely, but perhaps.

[Ump Rube]

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

FU (is that right term?)

No, but it does make reading it funnier. The "proper" term would be U1 if you are working in FED terms, but within the forum the "accepted" term would be BU as in Base Umpire.

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

Should I tell our manager the correct call to protect the same scenario from happening against us...?

My philosophy regarding situations like this is... Knowledge is POWER. (Cheesy, I know.) The worst that seems to happen, is you/he feels crappy about winning that way. The best you know the correct ruling when it does happen to your team. If it happens again and you are on the short end of the call and then you tell the coach about you run the risk of having problems.

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

When a ball is swung on, missed, but hits hand, is it a dead ball batter out, or an uncaught third strike and batter can run to first? (My gut says dead ball, but I'm not sure.)

To echo: DB plus: strike, ball, award. Depending. (Edit: In regards to the OP: DB, K)

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by Ump Rube

To echo: DB plus: strike, ball, award. Depending.

It doesn't depend if he swings. DB, strike. Out if appropriate.

[Ump Rube]

I'm sorry, you are correct. I quoted the OP, but was echoing the general call for a BR hit. My apologies.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by Blue37

I have worked tournaments where the director was the protest committee. Perhaps, there was an unannounced protest, which is why the director was summoned. Also, perhaps he meant to say, "Ball hit bat...part of hand....foul ball...", but got the sequence wrong.

Not very likely, but perhaps.

I filled in the "...." this way. "The ball hit his hand, then hit a part of the bat, so it is a foul ball." Upon reflection, it seems likely More Cowbell intended it to be read as "The ball hit his hand which is part of the bat, so it is a foul ball."

The "...." makes the quote unclear.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

The tournament director "overturned" the umpire? Not in my game. And if he insists, I'm outta there on the spot.

Sounds like a protest process. If the TD is the protest committee you go with wnat he rules - stupid as it might be.

[More Cowbell]

Again, you guys are nails on this stuff...almost makes me want to become an ump. Just to clarify, the TD didn't really say a complete sentence, he sort of gave a quick gesture/statement from above the stands, "Ball hit the hand (slight pause) (that's) part of the bat...foul ball."

I get a lot of help from the football guys on the other side of the forum. Are any of you crazy enough to do both? I respect the heck out of you guys, even when you ring up my boy! (Come on...that was way outside blue! :-) I try to keep that to myself!

[johnnyg08]

i do both...crazy award accepted.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

I get a lot of help from the football guys on the other side of the forum. Are any of you crazy enough to do both?

I do 4 sports. What does that make me?