Why not another? 9U play

[Brett]

I simply reject the "I was wearing my coach had at the time" argument as it pertains to this situation. I subscribe to the "once an official ALWAYS an official" camp. As an official, lying to ANYONE (even cell phone mcgee) to gain a competitive advantage in amateur athletics is simply beneath me.

Too bad it's not beneath you, Joe.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by Brett

I simply reject the "I was wearing my coach had at the time" argument as it pertains to this situation. I subscribe to the "once an official ALWAYS an official" camp. As an official, lying to ANYONE (even cell phone mcgee) to gain a competitive advantage in amateur athletics is simply beneath me.

Too bad it's not beneath you, Joe.

Some have said I was lying. I do not think saying: "Nope, too late. You called him safe" was a lie.

I already said that the best case scenario, I would have been able to keep my mouth shut(of course, for many people here, even THAT would not have been good enough...for them I should have been told the umpire to call my guy out)

I was expressing my opinion that it was too late and I did not want him change his mind. I certainly did not state that the rules preclude him from changing his mind. He did not know I am an umpire. My comment was not given or taken as an authoritative commentary on the OBR. The only reason he was considering changing his mind was too placate the other team who were hollering at him. He was just a wimp trying to please the other team. If I had gotten any notion that this guy gave a flying crap about doing a good job, I would have never said anything. If he had been a kid instead of an adult, I would not have said anything.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

Some have said I was lying. I do not think saying: "Nope, too late. You called him safe" was a lie.

Coach:

Then you must think it is the truth.

That's different. You aren't unethical, you're just ignorant of the rules. Hopefully you'll brush up before putting your umpire hat back on.

[GA Umpire]

Since the other thread was closed before I could respond to your post, I will put it here.

If you see a player or coach tell you NO CATCH, Blue. You would have a moron on your hands.

Are you insinuating that a player that does not make a clean catch should ask the umpire to overturn the out? I hope I am misunderstanding you.

Joe

You want to know why coaches and players are referred to as "rats" in general. You have proven why in this thread. You knew what you told the umpire was wrong. You told it to him anyway hoping he would(and did) believe you and not make the correct call. This is being a "rat" as it is put. Find as many ways as possible to bend or break the rules and hope the officials don't catch it. That is why the term "Rat" is given to coaches. It has nothing to do with the confrontational ones. It has everything to do with the nature of many coaches.

And, if the player does fess up to not catching a fly ball, then he is showing morals to not cheat to win. He knew he missed it and did not lie about it. I can't believe you called an honest player a moron. You have clearly showed you are a wolf in sheep's clothing on the field(coach dressed up like an umpire). And, you wonder why so many attack you when you post things. You are always negative toward umpires who do not agree with you hence your other thread. And, you attempt to convince umpires they are wrong when they are right. And, you wonder why coaches/players are referred to as "Rats". Go figure.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

Since the other thread was closed before I could respond to your post, I will put it here.


You want to know why coaches and players are referred to as "rats" in general. You have proven why in this thread. You knew what you told the umpire was wrong. You told it to him anyway hoping he would(and did) believe you and not make the correct call. This is being a "rat" as it is put. Find as many ways as possible to bend or break the rules and hope the officials don't catch it. That is why the term "Rat" is given to coaches. It has nothing to do with the confrontational ones. It has everything to do with the nature of many coaches.

And, if the player does fess up to not catching a fly ball, then he is showing morals to not cheat to win. He knew he missed it and did not lie about it. I can't believe you called an honest player a moron. You have clearly showed you are a wolf in sheep's clothing on the field(coach dressed up like an umpire). And, you wonder why so many attack you when you post things. You are always negative toward umpires who do not agree with you hence your other thread. And, you attempt to convince umpires they are wrong when they are right. And, you wonder why coaches/players are referred to as "Rats". Go figure.

Any player that says, "No, I did not catch it" is a moron and also benched.

I think I did nail it on the head for some of you in the piety lobby...A player or coach or manager should help the umpire who screwed up a call in their favor or they are rats. But, they only should help the umpire fix his call if the umpire erred in their favor.

The insanity of your position cannot be overstated.

Why should a coach or manager help the umpire but not the reverse?

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

Any player that says, "No, I did not catch it" is a moron and also benched.

I think I did nail it on the head for some of you in the piety lobby...A player or coach or manager should help the umpire who screwed up a call in their favor or they are rats. But, only should they help the umpire fix his call if the umpire erred In their favor.

The insanity of your position cannot be overstated.

Why should a coach or manager help the umpire but not the reverse?

I didn't say they should. I said those who do what you did are referred to as "rats". It is amazing how you defend cheating. Yet, you try to be an umpire. Your integrity as an umpire would be shot if the other coaches knew what you do. And, well, your integrity as a coach is already shot b/c coaches have no integrity.

I said those who do not do what you did show integrity and morals. Not "cheat to win at all costs" idea.

Every post you make shows why coaches are perceived as "rats". I can't believe you don't see it but you clearly don't. Keep being a rat with each post.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

I didn't say they should. I said those who do what you did are referred to as "rats". It is amazing how you defend cheating. Yet, you try to be an umpire. Your integrity as an umpire would be shot if the other coaches knew what you do. And, well, your integrity as a coach is already shot b/c coaches have no integrity.

I said those who do not do what you did show integrity and morals. Not "cheat to win at all costs" idea.

Every post you make shows why coaches are perceived as "rats". I can't believe you don't see it but you clearly don't. Keep being a rat with each post.

I am just curious here, GA UMPIRE...if that is your real name...

Have you ever called a pitch a strike and then realized it was a ball? Did you change it for the integrity of the game? Have you ever called a pitch a strike that you KNEW was a ball? Have you ever given a "ball off the plate" as your strike zone? Have you ever called a guy out on a ball out of the zone because he was a jerk on strike two? Have you ever called a guy safe or out and then realized you kicked the call. Did you then tell everyone that you blew it and changed the call? Do you criticize umpires for doing any of these things? How about the umpires that laugh about getting outs and strikes that don't exist? What about the umpires who call guys out because "the ball was there"...even if the tag was not.

You want an outfielder to say "NO! I did not catch it! call him SAFE!" You take the cake.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

I am just curious here, GA UMPIRE...if that is your real name...

Have you ever called a pitch a strike and then realized it was a ball? Did you change it for the integrity of the game? Have you ever called a pitch a strike that you KNEW was a ball? Have you ever given a "ball off the plate" as your strike zone? Have you ever called a guy out n a ball out of the zone because he was a jerk on strike two? Have you ever criticized an umpire for doing the same? Have you ever called a guy safe or out and then realized you kicked the call. Did you then tell everyone that you blew it and changed the call?

You want an outfielder to say "NO! I did not catch it! call him SAFE!" You take the cake.

A person's integrity and integrity of the game are 2 totally different things.

Integrity of the game is calling the game within the rules. If the umpire blows the call, he has not ruined the integrity of the game. He just missed it. And, a judgment call does not change just b/c the umpire may think he blew the judgment. If there is a rule misapplied(as in your play), then the judgment call can be changed such as first baseman's foot comes off the bag. All of that still upholds the integrity of the game b/c it is part of the game and rules.

A player/coach informing the umpire of what the correct call is shows integrity of the person. Doesn't mean the call will change. It just means the person has morals and integrity. And, that goes a long way. Just like when an umpire knows a coach/player is a "rat". He does not get the benefit of the doubt at that point b/c he will do/say anything to get an advantage.

I'm not saying you have to do that by no means. All I am saying is don't question why others attack you when you pull "rat" tactics and come on here to brag about them. Do what you want. If you get busted, well, then you deserve the treatment you get such as close plays not going your way. Or, your fellow coaches giving you he!! as an umpire b/c they already know the levels you will stoop to. That is all I am saying.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

A person's integrity and integrity of the game are 2 totally different things.

Integrity of the game is calling the game within the rules. If the umpire blows the call, he has not ruined the integrity of the game. He just missed it. And, a judgment call does not change just b/c the umpire may think he blew the judgment. If there is a rule misapplied(as in your play), then the judgment call can be changed such as first baseman's foot comes off the bag. All of that still upholds the integrity of the game b/c it is part of the game and rules.

A player/coach informing the umpire of what the correct call is shows integrity of the person. Doesn't mean the call will change. It just means the person has morals and integrity. And, that goes a long way. Just like when an umpire knows a coach/player is a "rat". He does not get the benefit of the doubt at that point b/c he will do/say anything to get an advantage.

I'm not saying you have to do that by no means. All I am saying is don't question why others attack you when you pull "rat" tactics and come on here to brag about them. Do what you want. If you get busted, well, then you deserve the treatment you get such as close plays not going your way. Or, your fellow coaches giving you he!! as an umpire b/c they already know the levels you will stoop to. That is all I am saying.

Again, to clarify...a player/coach is a rat unless he corrects favorable calls in his favor. An umpire is not a rat if he rules against a team on close plays for the sole reason that he deems the coach to be a rat.

Also, an umpire has no responsibility to correct an incorrect judgment call(even if he realizes he kicked it)...the team who benefitted from that call should try and get it corrected in order to show integrity...and of course, if they do not...they are all rats.

In other words, umpires start out with the understanding that they are good, honest folks. Players/coaches are bad unless they take extraordinary efforts to help umpires correct calls that were ruled in their favor...but only calls in their favor. We really want them to keep their yaps shut if we screw them with a bad call.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

Any player that says, "No, I did not catch it" is a moron and also benched.

And this sends what message to the player?

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by waltjp

And this sends what message to the player?

Right. If the player doesn't cheat with the coach, then he sits down b/c he is showing integrity.

OMG, a 9 y/o has more integrity than an adult and shows it.

[cc6]

Mr. Umpire told me that I am acting like a coach on an umpire board. I will attempt an objective perspective, which is hard to do after all the inflammatory postings made in the OP's direction.

One of the coach's jobs is to win games using good sportsmanship.

The main debate is whether jwwashburn was breaking the rules of good sportsmanship when he tried to decieve the umpire.

Let's list some terms that we associate with sportsmanship, and discuss whether the attempt to decieve violated any of them.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by cc6

Mr. Umpire told me that I am acting like a coach on an umpire board. I will attempt an objective perspective, which is hard to do after all the inflammatory postings made in the OP's direction.

One of the coach's jobs is to win games using good sportsmanship.

The main debate is whether jwwashburn was breaking the rules of good sportsmanship when he tried to decieve the umpire.

Let's list some terms that we associate with sportsmanship, and discuss whether the attempt to decieve violated any of them.

I don't need to read any more negative comments about poor cell phone McGee. If you have any dignity left for Mr McGoo, why choose to continue to "dump on the young ump" and bring it here for the "umpteenth" time. All this could have been averted had the "coach" taught the little boy to run to the next base. There were some good comments provided by J Paco and others. But those comments have been "drowned out" trying to keep the rat in his box.

In summary 1) Rats have no business talking to the umpire after the game ends to clarify anything.
2) Rats have no business talking to the umpire between innings of a game to clarify anything. In short, the rat should have left the field without exchanging words with the umpire. He got away with some more cheese.
3) The only reason we discuss the proper or improper behavior of rats is to keep our cheese.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by cc6

Mr. Umpire told me that I am acting like a coach on an umpire board. I will attempt an objective perspective, which is hard to do after all the inflammatory postings made in the OP's direction.

Perhaps you missed the central theme of my PM.

You, along with jw may occasionally wear an umpire's uniform and call games. You may even go to umpire meetings and umpire clinics. But when a critical event occurs, you both immediately think and react like rats. Your first impulse is not that of an umpires, but that of coach.

We are not naive. We know coaches lie. We're just amazed that they can lie and then say they didn't. Even more amazing is, like jw has stated, coaches will punish a player for telling the truth. Wow.

My point to you, my young Canadian friend, is that when you claim to be an umpire, but throw your lot in with coaches, act like a coach, think like a coach, respond like a coach and defend a lying coach who would punish a player for telling the truth, all on an umpire board, you have no right to be surprised or even offended when you are treated accordlingly.

When I first came to this site someone used to say there is a difference between an umpire who coaches and a coach who umpires. I believe you and jw have shown that to be true.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by waltjp

And this sends what message to the player?

I do not let my players argue with the umpire when they screw up a call against us, why in the world would I let them argue with the umpire who screwed up in our favor?

I will say this is new to me...I have never heard in my 15+ years of umpiring anyone espouse such a ridiculous standard for players. I have worked with who knows how many umpires with hundreds of years of experience and I have never heard this kind of idiocy from any of them. I have contacted at least fifteen good friends whom I have umpired with for years and each one of them them thought I was joking or could not even fathom that umpires actually would say a player lacked integrity for not trying to get a call reversed that went in his favor. I wonder what a poll would show here....

I would hope that most people who even disagree with my actions in the OP(which, by the way, I have many times said it would have been better if I had not said it) would not favor the lunacy of a player/coach trying to get an umpire to rule against him. I have been around sports all of my life in many different parts of the country...I have never heard this before.