Play at the plate

[GPC2]

To preface this post, I am a football official and know absolutely NOTHING about baseball umpiring.

I was watching the JUCO World Series this past weekend and there was a close play at the plate in the bottom half of the 9th inning. My question is about the mechanics and positioning of an umpire at home plate for a bang-bang play. The umpire was on the 3rd base/home plate baseline extended (see pic #10 at Day 7 of JUCO 2009, May 29 | Photo Gallery | GJSentinel). It appeared to me that the runner tagged the base with his left hand and the catcher either did or didn't tag the runner in the back as he was in the sitting position either at the same time, slightly before or slightly after he tagged the plate. Basically a really tough call.

It seems to me that from the umpire's view point, he wouldn't be able to see the tag on the back of the runner since the tag would have occured on the runner's back. Is there ever a time where the umpire would remain in the area behind the plate for this call?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

[GA Umpire]

It is a tough call and I can tell it would be just by that pic.

The umpire was in the best position possible from what I can tell from that pic. Generally, the umpire will kind of stand at the point and adjust from there on the play. Since this was a swipe tag attempt, the umpire tried to get 3BLX(third base line extended). He couldn't completely b/c of the players being in the wrong position. But, he looked like he was still in a good position.

Some plays are going to be difficult to see no matter where the umpire gets. Now, if it was going to be a blocking of the plate play, the umpire would get 1BLX(first base line extended). Especially if the throw is coming from the left side of the field.

This umpire did it right and got in the best spot possible for this type of play. The only other place he could have gotten is the area where the teammates are at. He could have gone a little over the 3BLX line to get the angle to see if the tag is applied on the backside. But, that wasn't going to happen b/c of the other players.

For beginners, 1BLX is better to start. After feeling comfortable, they can begin to move to the POP(point of plate) position and read the play and from there to go 3BLX or 1BLX. But, this umpire would not have seen any tag from 1BLX probably on this play.

But, after seeing pic 34, he did see the tag and called the runner out. Looked like the right call too b/c pic 32 has the tag on the back.

[GPC2]

Thanks GA Umpire, that was exactly what I was looking for - I knew there had to be a reason why he was in the position he was in. Another question, is there a "When in doubt..." for this type of play, or is there a "Tie goes to the...." on this type of play?

[Ump Rube]

Originally Posted by gpc2

"tie goes to the...."

Warning! Warning! Danger Will Robinson! Danger!

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by ump rube

warning! Warning! Danger will robinson! Danger!

lol

[Ump Rube]

Originally Posted by GPC2

Thanks GA Umpire, that was exactly what I was looking for - I knew there had to be a reason why he was in the position he was in. Another question, is there a "When in doubt..." for this type of play, or is there a "Tie goes to the...." on this type of play?

But in all seriousness, in baseball there are somethings that seem to be a couple of standards or defaults when making calls, but these are not absolutes by any means just guidelines.

It is...
a ball until it's a strike,
fair until it's foul,
safe until he's out.

If you didn't see a tag you can't call him out. (This will sound counter-intuitive but...) If you didn't see him touch (and no tag) he's safe.

In baseball contrary to popular belief "tie" (what a disgusting word) goes to the defense. The player must beat the ball, if he ties he has not beat. I hope this answers some questions.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by Ump Rube

It is...
a ball until it's a strike,
fair until it's foul,
safe until he's out.

Depends on the umpire. Many say "When in doubt, bang them out" or "All pitches are strikes until convinced otherwise".

I don't think along these lines. Some may even have it as their signature. Generally, I try to have no preconceived notions of what is about to happen until I see it. Sometimes I do, but I try not to on all plays/pitches.

And, as said before, should not call an out until the umpire sees an out.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Ump Rube

But in all seriousness, in baseball there are somethings that seem to be a couple of standards or defaults when making calls, but these are not absolutes by any means just guidelines.

It is...
a ball until it's a strike,
fair until it's foul,
safe until he's out.

If you didn't see a tag you can't call him out. (This will sound counter-intuitive but...) If you didn't see him touch (and no tag) he's safe.

In baseball contrary to popular belief "tie" (what a disgusting word) goes to the defense. The player must beat the ball, if he ties he has not beat. I hope this answers some questions.

Ump:

I was taught that it is a strike until it is a ball. You want the batters swinging not standing in the batter's box with the bat on their shoulders.

MTD, Sr.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Ump:

I was taught that it is a strike until it is a ball. You want the batters swinging not standing in the batter's box with the bat on their shoulders.

MTD, Sr.

Absolutely correct. The ball starts out as a strike until it does something to change that. I was taught to look at it this way, and it has served me well. Now, if the baseball does anything to change this, I have no problem calling it a ball.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Ump Rube

But in all seriousness, in baseball there are somethings that seem to be a couple of standards or defaults when making calls, but these are not absolutes by any means just guidelines.

It is...
a ball until it's a strike,

That is incorrect

It is a strike UNTIL proven otherwise

Pete Booth

[Ump Rube]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

But, after seeing pic 34, he did see the tag and called the runner out. Looked like the right call too b/c pic 32 has the tag on the back.

Don't forget the players faces in 33. Flabbergasted that the call could go the other way too.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by GPC2

To preface this post, I am a football official and know absolutely NOTHING about baseball umpiring.

I was watching the JUCO World Series this past weekend and there was a close play at the plate in the bottom half of the 9th inning. My question is about the mechanics and positioning of an umpire at home plate for a bang-bang play. The umpire was on the 3rd base/home plate baseline extended (see pic #10 at Day 7 of JUCO 2009, May 29 | Photo Gallery | GJSentinel). It appeared to me that the runner tagged the base with his left hand and the catcher either did or didn't tag the runner in the back as he was in the sitting position either at the same time, slightly before or slightly after he tagged the plate. Basically a really tough call.

It seems to me that from the umpire's view point, he wouldn't be able to see the tag on the back of the runner since the tag would have occured on the runner's back. Is there ever a time where the umpire would remain in the area behind the plate for this call?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

What's the question exactly? From the photo it looks like a close call. The umpire has positioned himself on the 3rd baseline extended, which is a good spot for swipe tags. Beyond that there's nothing to judge from the photo.

As for the question you ask: no, the umpire should not stay behind the plate. Proper positioning puts him on one of the baselines extended, depending on where the ball's coming from and what type of play he expects.

[GPC2]

Originally Posted by mbyron

What's the question exactly? From the photo it looks like a close call. The umpire has positioned himself on the 3rd baseline extended, which is a good spot for swipe tags. Beyond that there's nothing to judge from the photo.

As for the question you ask: no, the umpire should not stay behind the plate. Proper positioning puts him on one of the baselines extended, depending on where the ball's coming from and what type of play he expects.

I guess my question was how would the umpire know if the tag was actually made since the tag would be made on the opposite side of the player's body than the ump was positioned on? Is it just a feel thing, where you get used to knowing if the player was tagged? I guess, to me, it would seem like you could see that better from behind the plate (but then you would be obstructed from seeing the plate I guess) - hey man, I don't know - just wondering.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by GPC2

I guess my question was how would the umpire know if the tag was actually made since the tag would be made on the opposite side of the player's body than the ump was positioned on? Is it just a feel thing, where you get used to knowing if the player was tagged? I guess, to me, it would seem like you could see that better from behind the plate (but then you would be obstructed from seeing the plate I guess) - hey man, I don't know - just wondering.

I'm not sure how to answer your question without sounding like a smartass. He gets into a position where he expects to be able to see, and then he looks. Sometimes weird stuff happens and he can't see as well as he might. Based on what he sees he makes a call, since nobody is gonna do it for him.

Standard mechanics never leave the umpire directly behind the plate for these plays, if that's what you're asking, even if on the rare play that would provide the best angle. Positioning for every umpire is always a matter of playing the odds.

Does that help?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by GPC2

I guess my question was how would the umpire know if the tag was actually made since the tag would be made on the opposite side of the player's body than the ump was positioned on? Is it just a feel thing, where you get used to knowing if the player was tagged? I guess, to me, it would seem like you could see that better from behind the plate (but then you would be obstructed from seeing the plate I guess) - hey man, I don't know - just wondering.

You're right. As it turns out, there could have been a better place (based on the pictures). But, that "better place" would heve made it more difficult if the tag had been on the side / arm / shoulder of the runner closer to the catcher. And, the play goes from a "tag on the shoulder" to a "tag on the back" in about .1 seconds (SWAG).

It happens in all sports (I don't work FB, so I won't try to come up with an exact analogy). All you can do is use your experience, and other evidence (sound, the movement of F2's glove / arm) to determine what most likely happened.