Third Strike "Legally Caught"

[JPaco54]

Having trouble with understanding - "Legally Caught" as in reference to 6.05 B, "If a foul-tip first strikes the catcher’s glove and then goes on through and is caught by both hands against his body or protector, before the ball touches the ground, it is a strike, and if third strike, batter is out. If smothered against his body or protector, it is a catch provided the ball struck the catcher’s glove or hand first."

Not sure what it means, "...goes on through and is caught by both hands against his body or protector....."

I thought a foul tip was a direct stike to the catcher's glove and had to be caught. It seems the catcher can bobble the ball before it hits the ground.

If there is an old link to this subject please advise so we can allow for other discussions.

[JPaco54]

FOUL TIP - is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play

I guess this is where I get crossed up, with this definition.

[UmpJM]

JPaco45,

If the tipped ball deflects off the catcher's hand or mitt (i.e. not a "clean catch") but he is ultimately able to gain secure possession in his hand or glove before the ball touches the ground (or anyone/anything else) it is a legal catch and a foul tip - despite any interim "bobbling" of the ball.

If it goes straight through to his chest/knee/mask whatever without touching his hand or mitt, it is not a catch (nor a foul tip) even if he does gain secure possession in his hand or glove before the ball touches anything.

It is simply an "uncaught foul".

JM

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

JPaco45,

If the tipped ball deflects off the catcher's hand or mitt (i.e. not a "clean catch") but he is ultimately able to gain secure possession in his hand or glove before the ball touches the ground (or anyone/anything else) it is a legal catch and a foul tip - despite any interim "bobbling" of the ball.

If it goes straight through to his chest/knee/mask whatever without touching his hand or mitt, it is not a catch (nor a foul tip) even if he does gain secure possession in his hand or glove before the ball touches anything.

It is simply an "uncaught foul".

JM

JM said it very nicely. I once had a game end on a foul tip that went glove-bare hand-CP-thigh-grabbed w/bare hand. But it never touched the ground.

[chartrusepengui]

JV game Tuesday. I am BU. 3rd strike foul tip goes off F2's glove, hits F2 just above protector on collarbone, then drops down neck opening and is trapped between chest protector and his body. Chaos as PU declares a catch and batter out. OC appeals call - saying no catch. PU call me in.

Then - the best thing in the world happens. As I am heading in - batter is bored by what's going on - has never touched 1st, turns and heads into dugout. I told coach and PU everything is now a moot point as batter is definately out when he goes into dugout.

After game PU and I talking and decided that since F2 was wearing gear properly and was fastened properly, that it would have been a catch since ball never touched ground and when he reached in and pulled ball out he had control. He did not "use" his gear improperly.

I felt good about it then - but have had some doubts later. Input?

[mbyron]

Sorry dude, you blew that one.

Originally Posted by Rule 8-3-3

Each runner is awarded...

(f) one base beyond the last legally acquired base, if in the umpire’s judgment
the runner was attempting to advance at the time the ball becomes lodged
in an offensive player’s uniform or equipment. If the lodged ball occurs during
play when the batter-runner was attempting to reach first base, the batter-
runner will be awarded first base. Preceding runners will be awarded
bases needed to complete the award.

Also, the BR's leaving the field during a dead ball (as you're walking toward PU) would not constitute an out.

In your play, this is a foul ball. Runners stay put unless they were stealing on the pitch, in which case they advance one base.

Edited to add: you can't rule this a catch, because F2 did not securely possess the ball in his hand or mitt.

[chartrusepengui]

The problem was the batter runner never really advanced directly to 1st or towards first along his legal path. He stood at the plate, and when coach came out - he waited a minute - then walked towards dugout opening 1st base side. He was never closer than 70 feet from 1st base and was not even looking like he was going there. He was even still carrying his bat.

As I stated before upon further thought yesterday I thought we bungled the "catch" decision. Didn't look up in book as rule book/gear is in my car my wife took to Detroit and won't have it until tomorrow. Thanks for rule reference. I think I was dwelling on his not using equipment improperly

[chartrusepengui]

I've learned. Thanks for the quick replies. It was nagging at me - especially not being able to look up. I already left a message for a couple guys I work with to see if I could get them to look up answer or let me borrow their books for an hour or two. Fortunately, this did not have any effect on outcome of game. He was on the winning team in a 9-0 game.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

JV game Tuesday. I am BU. 3rd strike foul tip goes off F2's glove, hits F2 just above protector on collarbone, then drops down neck opening and is trapped between chest protector and his body. Chaos as PU declares a catch and batter out. OC appeals call - saying no catch. PU call me in.

Then - the best thing in the world happens. As I am heading in - batter is bored by what's going on - has never touched 1st, turns and heads into dugout. I told coach and PU everything is now a moot point as batter is definately out when he goes into dugout.

After game PU and I talking and decided that since F2 was wearing gear properly and was fastened properly, that it would have been a catch since ball never touched ground and when he reached in and pulled ball out he had control. He did not "use" his gear improperly.

I felt good about it then - but have had some doubts later. Input?

I think you kicked it twice.

1) The batter never became a BR, so he can't be out for entering the dugout.

2) It's not a catch, so it's not a foul tip. It's just a foul ball.

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think you kicked it twice.

1) The batter never became a BR, so he can't be out for entering the dugout.

2) It's not a catch, so it's not a foul tip. It's just a foul ball.

True - the same bad decision led to a double kick. Still trying to learn - but have a ways to go yet. I guess what started my misguided thinking was when the PU initially called "catch - batter out", and the chaos ensued, I got caught up in it, thinking then if "no catch" - batter was a batter runner, and when entering dugout was out. A quick easy fix that continued to bother me even after conversation with PU after game.

I need to slow down more and think things through in these situations as I have learned to do in basketball. Umping baseball is still pretty new to me and if I don't slow down I can get flustered. It's only happened a couple of times but still a couple of times too many.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by mbyron

In your play, this is a foul ball. Runners stay put unless they were stealing on the pitch, in which case they advance one base.

I'm trying to figure out how you can have a foul ball AND award bases to runners.

[johnnyg08]

This isn't a lodged ball situation at all right? Once we have "no catch" on the...at one point, "foul tip"...is that the right way to handle this?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by yawetag

I'm trying to figure out how you can have a foul ball AND award bases to runners.

You're right, you can't. I wrote my response in 5 stages as I was figuring it out, and didn't return to delete that piece. The runners would advance if stealing and a pitched ball lodged in the catcher's equipment. A foul ball is just a foul ball, even if it lodges.