Obstruction/Interference/Nothing???Discuss

[UmpJM]

ozzy,

Under OBR, a BR obstructed before reaching 1B is ALWAYS "Type A", regardless of whether a play is being made on him.

Under OBR, that's an immediate dead ball (so the ball going out of play "never happened"), aand the BR gets 1B.

Under FED, you keep the ball in play until it enters DBT. Then you kill it and award runners 2 bases. It was the DEFENSE'S actions that were the root cause of the ball going out of play. No way I'm "bailing them out" by making the "lesser" of the two awards resulting from the action of the play.

JM

[_Bruno_]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Under OBR, a BR obstructed before reaching 1B is ALWAYS "Type A", regardless of whether a play is being made on him.

Under OBR, that's an immediate dead ball (so the ball going out of play "never happened"), aand the BR gets 1B.

well, it's not an immediate dead ball in any case ! only if an IF has an "easy play" on the batted ball (J/R). what if the ball was hit into CF and F8 would have caught the ball after your time call ? ... award the BR first base ? that's an out !

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by _Bruno_

well, it's not an immediate dead ball in any case ! only if an IF has an "easy play" on the batted ball (J/R). what if the ball was hit into CF and F8 would have caught the ball after your time call ? ... award the BR first base ? that's an out !

Bruno,

If the batter hits a fly ball which is subsequently caught, the obstruction is disregarded. So if the batted ball is "in flight" when the BR is obstructed, I would call the Obstruction, but I would not kill it.

I have no idea where you're getting this "...easy play by an infielder..." nonsense, but it is nonsense.

JM

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

ozzy,

Under OBR, a BR obstructed before reaching 1B is ALWAYS "Type A", regardless of whether a play is being made on him.

Under OBR, that's an immediate dead ball (so the ball going out of play "never happened"), aand the BR gets 1B.

Under FED, you keep the ball in play until it enters DBT. Then you kill it and award runners 2 bases. It was the DEFENSE'S actions that were the root cause of the ball going out of play. No way I'm "bailing them out" by making the "lesser" of the two awards resulting from the action of the play.

JM

Agree about OBR and FED.

The last part was going to be my answer to dash: true, the obstruction led to everything else, including the ball going out of play. But the obstruction was a violation by the DEFENSE: if the coach complained about a 2-base award, I would tell him to have his players skip the obstruction next time.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Agree about OBR and FED.

The last part was going to be my answer to dash: true, the obstruction led to everything else, including the ball going out of play. But the obstruction was a violation by the DEFENSE: if the coach complained about a 2-base award, I would tell him to have his players skip the obstruction next time.

I don't think the rules preclude you from the 2-base award. I also don't think the rules preclude me from killing the play before the ball enters DBT and making it a 1-base award. I'm going with Plan B.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Under FED, you keep the ball in play until it enters DBT.

JM

I don't think you have to do that. See 5-1-1-h, 5-1-3, and 5-2-1-f

See also 5.1.2 A (Case Book) and (perhaps most importantly), the last sentence of 8-3-2: "If an award is to be made, the ball becomes dead when time is taken to make the award."

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

I don't think you have to do that. See 5-1-1-h, 5-1-3, and 5-2-1-f

5-1-1h: calling time to inspect the ball. Relevance?

5-1-3: call time to make awards for obstruction. Does not supersede the fact that all OBS in FED is "type B" -- delayed dead ball.

5-2-1f: time is called by the umpire to make base awards or inspect the ball. Relevance?

The proper method of handling OBS is delayed dead ball and wait till the end of playing action. See this case play (different situation, cited only for proper mechanic for OBS).

Originally Posted by 2009 NFHS Case Book

8.3.2 SITUATION A: R1 and R2 are on second and first, respectively, when B3
beats out an infield hit. R1 advances to and past third toward home. In a rundown,
F5 obstructs R1. However, R1 gets back to third safely and finds R2 there.
F5 tags R2 with the ball. RULING: Umpire shall signal a delayed dead ball when
the infraction by F5 occurs. At the conclusion of playing action, he declares the
ball dead, then awards home to R1 and allows R2 to remain at third. When a runner
is obstructed, the obstructed runner is awarded a minimum of one base
beyond his position on base when the obstruction occurred.

In the OP, playing action ended with the ball entering DBT. If you kill it first, you're doing it wrong (well, FED-wrong, which might not be baseball-wrong ).

In fact, not only do we NOT bail out the defense by awarding just 1 base here, the ENTIRE RATIONALE for the ball remaining live is to allow the defense to make an even worse mistake so that the offense gets a better award. In this case they did.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

5-1-1h: calling time to inspect the ball. Relevance?

Read the rest of 5-1-1h (C'mon mb, keep it honest)

5-1-3: call time to make awards for obstruction. Does not supersede the fact that all OBS in FED is "type B" -- delayed dead ball.

5-2-1f: time is called by the umpire to make base awards or inspect the ball. Relevance?

See above.

The proper method of handling OBS is delayed dead ball and wait till the end of playing action. See this case play (different situation, cited only for proper mechanic for OBS).



In the OP, playing action ended with the ball entering DBT. If you kill it first, you're doing it wrong (well, FED-wrong, which might not be baseball-wrong ).

In fact, not only do we NOT bail out the defense by awarding just 1 base here, the ENTIRE RATIONALE for the ball remaining live is to allow the defense to make an even worse mistake so that the offense gets a better award. In this case they did.

I think it is to allow the offense to achieve additional bases (other than through an award) that would cause the OBS to be ignored, and the ball to remain live, and maybe even result in outs for the defense.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

I don't think you have to do that. See 5-1-1-h, 5-1-3, and 5-2-1-f

See also 5.1.2 A (Case Book) and (perhaps most importantly), the last sentence of 8-3-2: "If an award is to be made, the ball becomes dead when time is taken to make the award."

Dash,

You are employing "backwards logic".

The pertinent rules for determining "when" to kill it to make the award are:

2-22-1 ...When obstruction occurs, the ball becomes dead at the end of playing action....

and

2-29-1 ...a unit of action which ... ends when ball becomes dead or pitcher again holds the ball while in pitching position

If there is a "loose ball" on the field and viable runners, the playing action has not ended.

JM

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Dash,

You are employing "backwards logic".

The pertinent rules for determining "when" to kill it to make the award are:

2-22-1 ...When obstruction occurs, the ball becomes dead at the end of playing action....

and

2-29-1 ...a unit of action which ... ends when ball becomes dead or pitcher again holds the ball while in pitching position

If there is a "loose ball" on the field and viable runners, the playing action has not ended.

JM

Doesn't say the ball can't become dead before then. And I still go back to 8-3-2: "...the umpire shall award the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction the bases they would have reached, in his opinion, had there been no obstruction..."

Had there been no obstruction, the ball would never have entered DBT. I think that permits me to disregard the 2-base award.

I'm off to the doc, back later. This is a good one.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Doesn't say the ball can't become dead before then. And I still go back to 8-3-2: "...the umpire shall award the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction the bases they would have reached, in his opinion, had there been no obstruction..."

Had there been no obstruction, the ball would never have entered DBT. I think that permits me to disregard the 2-base award.

I'm off to the doc, back later. This is a good one.

Backward logic again, dash. The guideline of "what would have happened" applies only to the question of where to put the runners. Since the base award in the OP is NOT for obstruction, but for sending the ball into DBT, this guideline is moot.

Why are you so eager to protect the defense from their own violations? Haven't they committed 2 in the OP?

[gfgartland]

A batter becomes a runner [...] when...

E. the catcher or any other defensive team player obstructs him. The coach or captain of the team at bat, after being informed by the UIC of the obstruction, shall indicate whether or not he elects to decline the obstruction penalty and accept the resulting play. [...] Obstruction of the batter is ignored if the batter-runner reaches first and all other runners advance at least one base.

I want to say that you let the play go. Kill it when the ball goes to DBT and then give the coach/captain the option of 1st (obstruction) or 2nd (ball to DBT) for the batter.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by gfgartland

A batter becomes a runner [...] when...

E. the catcher or any other defensive team player obstructs him. The coach or captain of the team at bat, after being informed by the UIC of the obstruction, shall indicate whether or not he elects to decline the obstruction penalty and accept the resulting play. [...] Obstruction of the batter is ignored if the batter-runner reaches first and all other runners advance at least one base.

I want to say that you let the play go. Kill it when the ball goes to DBT and then give the coach/captain the option of 1st (obstruction) or 2nd (ball to DBT) for the batter.

gfgartland,

Please tell me you're kidding.

The rule you are referencing has NOTHING to do with the play in question because the batter has ALREADY become a runner prior to the obstruction occurring.

JM

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Backward logic again, dash. The guideline of "what would have happened" applies only to the question of where to put the runners. Since the base award in the OP is NOT for obstruction, but for sending the ball into DBT, this guideline is moot.

Why are you so eager to protect the defense from their own violations? Haven't they committed 2 in the OP?

Because I believe (as in OBR), the spirit of the rule is for the umpire to do whatever it takes to negate the act of obstruction. What would have happened absent the OBS? F2 probably throws the B/R out at first. I think a 1-base award is fair enough.

Let me try one last thing: What if you judged that the runner supplied the impetus that caused the ball to enter DBT? Would that change things?

Anyway, thanks for the debate mb & JM. The reason I'm here is guys like youse (note my location).

[gfgartland]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Because I believe (as in OBR), the spirit of the rule is for the umpire to do whatever it takes to negate the act of obstruction. What would have happened absent the OBS? F2 probably throws the B/R out at first. I think a 1-base award is fair enough.

This all depends on how you are viewing the actions from the OP in your mind. What if the B/R stops/ducks/jumps out of the way and F2 & F1 collide/bounce off each other thus causing the ball to come out and go to DBT?

On yet another tangent (sorry, I need to get this out of my head now) what if the B/R gets up quickly and is right at first and appers to be attempting to go to 2nd as the ball rolls slowly to DBT?