Obstruction/Interference/Nothing???Discuss

[umpjong]

This play did not occur (so I cant tell you how it was ruled on the field), but was watching a game and it was one of those almost happened plays.

Bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter hits a swinging "bunt" that rolls down first base line. As the runner and catcher make their way down the line approaching the ball the pitcher also converges. As the catcher picks up the ball, the pitcher runs into the batter/runner causing him (b/r) to fall in to the catcher, who then goes to the ground with the b/r (no tag has taken place-or add a tag if you like since it is a discussion) and loses control of the ball. The ball then rolls into a dead ball area. Were do you start and what is your ruling..

I have discussed this particular play scenario with the infamous (Ump)JJ and will post what we agreed on later.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by umpjong

This play did not occur (so I cant tell you how it was ruled on the field), but was watching a game and it was one of those almost happened plays.

Bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter hits a swinging "bunt" that rolls down first base line. As the runner and catcher make their way down the line approaching the ball the pitcher also converges. As the catcher picks up the ball, the pitcher runs into the batter/runner causing him (b/r) to fall in to the catcher, who then goes to the ground with the b/r (no tag has taken place-or add a tag if you like since it is a discussion) and loses control of the ball. The ball then rolls into a dead ball area. Were do you start and what is your ruling..

I have discussed this particular play scenario with the infamous (Ump)JJ and will post what we agreed on later.

umpjong:

Ask yourself this question: What occured first? Answer: The obstruction by the pitcher. Everything that happens after that is moot, because the obstruction by the pitcher caused everything else to happen.

MTD, Sr.

[UmpJM]

I concur with MTD - as described, this is obstruction on the pitcher.

Under OBR, this would be "Type A" obstruction, the ball is dead, the BR awarded 1B. Since the ball is derad immediately and the catcher had possession of the ball at the time of the obstruction, the ball entering DBT is disregarded.

Under FED it's still obstruction on the pitcher, but the ball remains in play. The contact with the catcher is "incidental" and the BR is awarded 2B on the ball going out of play.

JM

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Under FED it's still obstruction on the pitcher, but the ball remains in play. The contact with the catcher is "incidental" and the BR is awarded 2B on the ball going out of play.

JM

You don't think 8-3-2 gives the umpire the latitude to make it a 1-base award?

[UmpJM]

dash,

No, I don't believe it does, simply because the ball went out of play.

I would say the award under 8-3-2 is ONLY 1B, but the two base award for the ball going out of play (8-3-3c) "supercedes" the one base award on the obstruction.

JM

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

dash,

No, I don't believe it does, simply because the ball went out of play.

I would say the award under 8-3-2 is ONLY 1B, but the two base award for the ball going out of play (8-3-3c) "supercedes" the one base award on the obstruction.

JM

Agreed.

[dash_riprock]

JM & Bob,

I understand your point, but since the ball would not have gone out of play absent the obstruction (at least that would be my judgment), I'm ignoring it and awarding 1 base only.

There is nothing in FED that requires the umpire to give effect to everything that happens after the violation. In fact, in a delayed dead ball situation (such as this one), the ball becomes dead when the umpire calls time to make the award (see 5-1-3 and 5-2-1-f), which may or may not coincide with when the ball rolls out of play.

I think 8-3-2 requires the umpire to ignore the ball rolling into DBT if, in his judgment, it wouldn't have happened absent the OBS.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

I concur with MTD - as described, this is obstruction on the pitcher.

Under OBR, this would be "Type A" obstruction, the ball is dead, the BR awarded 1B. Since the ball is derad immediately and the catcher had possession of the ball at the time of the obstruction, the ball entering DBT is disregarded.

Under FED it's still obstruction on the pitcher, but the ball remains in play. The contact with the catcher is "incidental" and the BR is awarded 2B on the ball going out of play.

JM

I am stretching, and can find nothing to support this question, but, in Fed, could the awards be cumulative?

Since he is awarded 1B on the obstruction, could the 2B award for the ball going out of play be measured from there?

Let's change the play and have a base hit to the wall in left center with R1. The batter is obstructed as he rounds 1st heading for 2nd, and has to retreat to 1st. The relay throw from the SS to the catcher goes out of play. You are certain the batter would have obtained 2nd prior to the SS's throw had he not been obstructed.

Where would you place the batter?

[UmpJM]

Blue37,

There is no "cumulative property of addition" with regard to base awards in baseball under any rule code. When two events occur during a play that specify a base award, the one more advantageous to the offense is enforced.

JM

[ozzy6900]

I had an "on the field board meeting" with myself and we conclude that in both OBR & FED, there is obstruction by F1 and it is delayed TIME (as always in FED). Once play has ceased, in this case everyone in a heap, TIME is called and:

• OBR = the base or bases that in the umpire's opinion would nullify the obstruction.
• FED = a minimum of 1 base award then same as OBR.

In both cases, there is no way that the batter-runner would have made it past 1st so that is where I am placing him.

As far as the ball going out of bounds, it never happened because TIME was called due to the cessation of play (see above). Also, it was F1 who caused the obstruction, not F2 so there was no play being made on the batter-runner, yet. This makes it Type B, not Type A.

Dash made the right call, people!

[UmpJM]

ozzy,

Under OBR, a BR obstructed before reaching 1B is ALWAYS "Type A", regardless of whether a play is being made on him.

Under OBR, that's an immediate dead ball (so the ball going out of play "never happened"), aand the BR gets 1B.

Under FED, you keep the ball in play until it enters DBT. Then you kill it and award runners 2 bases. It was the DEFENSE'S actions that were the root cause of the ball going out of play. No way I'm "bailing them out" by making the "lesser" of the two awards resulting from the action of the play.

JM

[_Bruno_]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Under OBR, a BR obstructed before reaching 1B is ALWAYS "Type A", regardless of whether a play is being made on him.

Under OBR, that's an immediate dead ball (so the ball going out of play "never happened"), aand the BR gets 1B.

well, it's not an immediate dead ball in any case ! only if an IF has an "easy play" on the batted ball (J/R). what if the ball was hit into CF and F8 would have caught the ball after your time call ? ... award the BR first base ? that's an out !

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

ozzy,

Under OBR, a BR obstructed before reaching 1B is ALWAYS "Type A", regardless of whether a play is being made on him.

Under OBR, that's an immediate dead ball (so the ball going out of play "never happened"), aand the BR gets 1B.

Under FED, you keep the ball in play until it enters DBT. Then you kill it and award runners 2 bases. It was the DEFENSE'S actions that were the root cause of the ball going out of play. No way I'm "bailing them out" by making the "lesser" of the two awards resulting from the action of the play.

JM

Agree about OBR and FED.

The last part was going to be my answer to dash: true, the obstruction led to everything else, including the ball going out of play. But the obstruction was a violation by the DEFENSE: if the coach complained about a 2-base award, I would tell him to have his players skip the obstruction next time.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Under FED, you keep the ball in play until it enters DBT.

JM

I don't think you have to do that. See 5-1-1-h, 5-1-3, and 5-2-1-f

See also 5.1.2 A (Case Book) and (perhaps most importantly), the last sentence of 8-3-2: "If an award is to be made, the ball becomes dead when time is taken to make the award."

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by _Bruno_

well, it's not an immediate dead ball in any case ! only if an IF has an "easy play" on the batted ball (J/R). what if the ball was hit into CF and F8 would have caught the ball after your time call ? ... award the BR first base ? that's an out !

Bruno,

If the batter hits a fly ball which is subsequently caught, the obstruction is disregarded. So if the batted ball is "in flight" when the BR is obstructed, I would call the Obstruction, but I would not kill it.

I have no idea where you're getting this "...easy play by an infielder..." nonsense, but it is nonsense.

JM