Obstruction/Interference/Nothing???Discuss

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Agree about OBR and FED.

The last part was going to be my answer to dash: true, the obstruction led to everything else, including the ball going out of play. But the obstruction was a violation by the DEFENSE: if the coach complained about a 2-base award, I would tell him to have his players skip the obstruction next time.

I don't think the rules preclude you from the 2-base award. I also don't think the rules preclude me from killing the play before the ball enters DBT and making it a 1-base award. I'm going with Plan B.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

I don't think you have to do that. See 5-1-1-h, 5-1-3, and 5-2-1-f

5-1-1h: calling time to inspect the ball. Relevance?

5-1-3: call time to make awards for obstruction. Does not supersede the fact that all OBS in FED is "type B" -- delayed dead ball.

5-2-1f: time is called by the umpire to make base awards or inspect the ball. Relevance?

The proper method of handling OBS is delayed dead ball and wait till the end of playing action. See this case play (different situation, cited only for proper mechanic for OBS).

Originally Posted by 2009 NFHS Case Book

8.3.2 SITUATION A: R1 and R2 are on second and first, respectively, when B3
beats out an infield hit. R1 advances to and past third toward home. In a rundown,
F5 obstructs R1. However, R1 gets back to third safely and finds R2 there.
F5 tags R2 with the ball. RULING: Umpire shall signal a delayed dead ball when
the infraction by F5 occurs. At the conclusion of playing action, he declares the
ball dead, then awards home to R1 and allows R2 to remain at third. When a runner
is obstructed, the obstructed runner is awarded a minimum of one base
beyond his position on base when the obstruction occurred.

In the OP, playing action ended with the ball entering DBT. If you kill it first, you're doing it wrong (well, FED-wrong, which might not be baseball-wrong ).

In fact, not only do we NOT bail out the defense by awarding just 1 base here, the ENTIRE RATIONALE for the ball remaining live is to allow the defense to make an even worse mistake so that the offense gets a better award. In this case they did.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

I don't think you have to do that. See 5-1-1-h, 5-1-3, and 5-2-1-f

See also 5.1.2 A (Case Book) and (perhaps most importantly), the last sentence of 8-3-2: "If an award is to be made, the ball becomes dead when time is taken to make the award."

Dash,

You are employing "backwards logic".

The pertinent rules for determining "when" to kill it to make the award are:

2-22-1 ...When obstruction occurs, the ball becomes dead at the end of playing action....

and

2-29-1 ...a unit of action which ... ends when ball becomes dead or pitcher again holds the ball while in pitching position

If there is a "loose ball" on the field and viable runners, the playing action has not ended.

JM

[gfgartland]

FED 5-1-2b: It is a delayed dead ball when a catcher or any fielder obstructs a batter or runner.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Dash,

You are employing "backwards logic".

The pertinent rules for determining "when" to kill it to make the award are:

2-22-1 ...When obstruction occurs, the ball becomes dead at the end of playing action....

and

2-29-1 ...a unit of action which ... ends when ball becomes dead or pitcher again holds the ball while in pitching position

If there is a "loose ball" on the field and viable runners, the playing action has not ended.

JM

Doesn't say the ball can't become dead before then. And I still go back to 8-3-2: "...the umpire shall award the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction the bases they would have reached, in his opinion, had there been no obstruction..."

Had there been no obstruction, the ball would never have entered DBT. I think that permits me to disregard the 2-base award.

I'm off to the doc, back later. This is a good one.

[gfgartland]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

See also 5.1.2 A (Case Book) and (perhaps most importantly), the last sentence of 8-3-2: "If an award is to be made, the ball becomes dead when time is taken to make the award."

Preceding wording in 8-3-2: "When obstruction occurs, the umpire gives the delayed dead ball signal and calls 'obstruction.'"

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Doesn't say the ball can't become dead before then. And I still go back to 8-3-2: "...the umpire shall award the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction the bases they would have reached, in his opinion, had there been no obstruction..."

Had there been no obstruction, the ball would never have entered DBT. I think that permits me to disregard the 2-base award.

I'm off to the doc, back later. This is a good one.

Backward logic again, dash. The guideline of "what would have happened" applies only to the question of where to put the runners. Since the base award in the OP is NOT for obstruction, but for sending the ball into DBT, this guideline is moot.

Why are you so eager to protect the defense from their own violations? Haven't they committed 2 in the OP?

[gfgartland]

A batter becomes a runner [...] when...

E. the catcher or any other defensive team player obstructs him. The coach or captain of the team at bat, after being informed by the UIC of the obstruction, shall indicate whether or not he elects to decline the obstruction penalty and accept the resulting play. [...] Obstruction of the batter is ignored if the batter-runner reaches first and all other runners advance at least one base.

I want to say that you let the play go. Kill it when the ball goes to DBT and then give the coach/captain the option of 1st (obstruction) or 2nd (ball to DBT) for the batter.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by gfgartland

A batter becomes a runner [...] when...

E. the catcher or any other defensive team player obstructs him. The coach or captain of the team at bat, after being informed by the UIC of the obstruction, shall indicate whether or not he elects to decline the obstruction penalty and accept the resulting play. [...] Obstruction of the batter is ignored if the batter-runner reaches first and all other runners advance at least one base.

I want to say that you let the play go. Kill it when the ball goes to DBT and then give the coach/captain the option of 1st (obstruction) or 2nd (ball to DBT) for the batter.

gfgartland,

Please tell me you're kidding.

The rule you are referencing has NOTHING to do with the play in question because the batter has ALREADY become a runner prior to the obstruction occurring.

JM

[gfgartland]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

gfgartland,

Please tell me you're kidding.

The rule you are referencing has NOTHING to do with the play in question because the batter has ALREADY become a runner prior to the obstruction occurring.

JM

I felt, if for nothing else but context, that it was best to place the entirety of the rule that I was citing. The information that should be gleaned from it is that it is not our decision to make. The coach/captain decides where he wants his runner.

This might also open up lines of thinking (beyond OP) in regards to other runners on at the time.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by gfgartland

... The information that should be gleaned from it is that it is not our decision to make. The coach/captain decides where he wants his runner. ...

gfgartland,

Stop it man, you're killing me!

Have you ever actually umpired a baseball game?

Ever seen one?

I can't believe you are this clueless.

Uhh... what exactly does being "Assistant Chief Umpire" entail, anyway? Just curious.

JM

[gfgartland]

I apologize. I don't know what the heck I was thinking while I was writing that, and then defending it too! Looking back I see that I am referencing something completely different. We all make mistakes, and I am big enough to admit mine.

As some side notes: 1. Yes, in fact I have umpired a baseball game or two. 2. I have seen a couple, in person even. 3. Assistant Chief Umpire means that I have to umpire games just like any other ump in the league, assist in training (both of umpires and coaches) deal with any questions that come up in the course of a season (from anyone umpire, coach, league director or parent), and mess around with paperwork to make sure that things work smoothly.

[UmpJM]

Grant,

Well, that's different! Never mind.

Please accept my apology for the excessive sarcasm in my previous post. I was a bit nonplussed by your assertion.

John

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Dash,

You are employing "backwards logic".

The pertinent rules for determining "when" to kill it to make the award are:

2-22-1 ...When obstruction occurs, the ball becomes dead at the end of playing action....

That is compelling, I admit.

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

and

2-29-1 ...a unit of action which ... ends when ball becomes dead or pitcher again holds the ball while in pitching position

If there is a "loose ball" on the field and viable runners, the playing action has not ended.

JM

It has if the umpire has killed the play to make a base award. And yes, I appreciate your (anticipated) response that killing the play would be contrary to 2-29-1.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

5-1-1h: calling time to inspect the ball. Relevance?

Read the rest of 5-1-1h (C'mon mb, keep it honest)

5-1-3: call time to make awards for obstruction. Does not supersede the fact that all OBS in FED is "type B" -- delayed dead ball.

5-2-1f: time is called by the umpire to make base awards or inspect the ball. Relevance?

See above.

The proper method of handling OBS is delayed dead ball and wait till the end of playing action. See this case play (different situation, cited only for proper mechanic for OBS).



In the OP, playing action ended with the ball entering DBT. If you kill it first, you're doing it wrong (well, FED-wrong, which might not be baseball-wrong ).

In fact, not only do we NOT bail out the defense by awarding just 1 base here, the ENTIRE RATIONALE for the ball remaining live is to allow the defense to make an even worse mistake so that the offense gets a better award. In this case they did.

I think it is to allow the offense to achieve additional bases (other than through an award) that would cause the OBS to be ignored, and the ball to remain live, and maybe even result in outs for the defense.