What would you call?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by DG

You mean that "Enforcement of penalties is concurrent jurisdiction" is your already answer?

Yep.

Originally Posted by DG

Answer a straight question. Would you post-game an obvious mis-application of rule or have discussion during the game to potentially correct?

That's not a straight question. If I have shared or primary responsibility for a decision, then I would rectify it at that time. If not, it goes after the game. I'd be giving the "I have something for you" signal throughout the ensuing discussion, but no overt input.

[DG]

Originally Posted by Matt

That's not a straight question. If I have shared or primary responsibility for a decision, then I would rectify it at that time. If not, it goes after the game. I'd be giving the "I have something for you" signal throughout the ensuing discussion, but no overt input.

I can see you excel at misdirection. Both umpires have responsibility for proper application of the rules.

You have "what's the situation" signals and now "I have something for you" signals, but will apparently NOT call time and have a discussion with your partner about a potential rules mis-application.

If I pooch a rule (not likely) you will not tell me during the game, unless I ask, which I will not because I don't know I pooched. And the coaches don't know so there is no justice and we, the team, did not do our jobs.

If I pooch a rule I would rather you throw me under the bus and I will learn from the experience, and I will be happy to throw you under too and maybe you will learn too, or not.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by DG

I can see you excel at misdirection. Both umpires have responsibility for proper application of the rules.

You have "what's the situation" signals and now "I have something for you" signals, but will apparently NOT call time and have a discussion with your partner about a potential rules mis-application.

If I pooch a rule (not likely) you will not tell me during the game, unless I ask, which I will not because I don't know I pooched. And the coaches don't know so there is no justice and we, the team, did not do our jobs.

If I pooch a rule I would rather you throw me under the bus and I will learn from the experience, and I will be happy to throw you under too and maybe you will learn too, or not.

This goes in the "whatever" pile.

[DG]

Originally Posted by Matt

This goes in the "whatever" pile.

You seem to aspire to be "whatever". Good luck.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by DG

You seem to aspire to be "whatever". Good luck.

I'm pretty sure I've done just fine and will continue to do so, personal attacks notwithstanding.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by DG

I can see you excel at misdirection. Both umpires have responsibility for proper application of the rules.

You have "what's the situation" signals and now "I have something for you" signals, but will apparently NOT call time and have a discussion with your partner about a potential rules mis-application.

If I pooch a rule (not likely) you will not tell me during the game, unless I ask, which I will not because I don't know I pooched. And the coaches don't know so there is no justice and we, the team, did not do our jobs.

If I pooch a rule I would rather you throw me under the bus and I will learn from the experience, and I will be happy to throw you under too and maybe you will learn too, or not.

Wow! You took the time to write all that down and then post it where other umpires would read it? And you're serious? Even about that last part?

Whatever.

[TwoBits]

A few answers from me, the OP:

This was a 14 & under USSSA "AA" game. Its not exactly the place you would put a rookie, but we've got a lot of new faces umpiring around the ball park. Some new guys are coming in to make a little extra money, some seasoned veterans not umpiring because they are working extra hours on the weekends in their regular jobs (gotta love this economy, don't you?)

I was plate umpire, my partner on bases. Defensive coach came to me first, and I directed him to my partner since it was his call. I was prepared to accept whatever judgment ruling he had unless he asked for help. However, when he loudly proclaimed that the runner has a right to the base path, I felt the need to step in in a private conversation with him while the coach attended to his injured player.

Had this been a veteran that I'm used to working with, then the situation would never have happened because the proper rule would have been applied. However, with a rookie umpire, an injured player, a rule misapplication, and an upset coach, I felt the need to offer my opinion to ward of a potentially volotile situation.

[bob jenkins]

IMO -- if it's a rules issue, I step in (and want my partner(s) to come to me).

The NCAA book lists other situations where an umpire can step in, even on judgment calls.

[johnnyg08]

I don't know...I think you are a crew out there...a team if you will. Safe/Out is a bit different from a rule application...if I see safe, and my partner saw out, (assuming the ball isn't on the ground and I didn't see it), then we live with those calls...sometimes we miss them, sometimes we get them right. If my partner misses a rule, that makes the crew look bad and it could make your assocation look bad. If your partner gets the count wrong, gets the outs wrong, misapplies a rule, I feel that it's my duty as a partner and my partner's duty to let me know as opposed to letting me look like a donkey on something that easily correctable. Work one-man if you don't want to work as a team and hang your partner out to dry.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I don't know...I think you are a crew out there...a team if you will. Safe/Out is a bit different from a rule application...if I see safe, and my partner saw out, (assuming the ball isn't on the ground and I didn't see it), then we live with those calls...sometimes we miss them, sometimes we get them right. If my partner misses a rule, that makes the crew look bad and it could make your assocation look bad. If your partner gets the count wrong, gets the outs wrong, misapplies a rule, I feel that it's my duty as a partner and my partner's duty to let me know as opposed to letting me look like a donkey on something that easily correctable. Work one-man if you don't want to work as a team and hang your partner out to dry.

By sticking your nose in your partner's business, you undermine his authority. You've just told everyone watching or participating in that game that he is not as competent as you are, and that will hamper his ability to umpire, at a minimum, for that game, and depending on word of mouth, for a longer period.

I had this happen to me--as BU, I had a clear balk that my "partner" couldn't see. Because the defense didn't like it, he chose to question my call of his own volition. The next two balk calls (one was a non-call) were much more controversial as a direct result of that, resulting in an ejection that would never have happened if my "partner" had kept his mouth shut.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

IMO -- if it's a rules issue, I step in (and want my partner(s) to come to me).

But how do you know if it's a rules issue? What if your partner knows the rule, but has adjudged the facts differently than you?

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Matt

But how do you know if it's a rules issue? What if your partner knows the rule, but has adjudged the facts differently than you?

R2 and R1. I am PU, 3 balls on batter. F1 pitches and BU calls "that's a balk". I call the pitch a ball. BU then calls time and starts awarding bases. I was 99% sure he called a balk for not stopping. So I ask "are you calling a no stop balk?" He says yes so I say well the pitch was ball 4, batter and all other runners are advancing so we'll ignore the balk. He agreed and all was well. It was possible he was calling a balk for something before the pitch so I just had to ask. It wasn't a big deal at all.

[DG]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

IMO -- if it's a rules issue, I step in (and want my partner(s) to come to me).

The NCAA book lists other situations where an umpire can step in, even on judgment calls.

Thank you. I have been trying to make this point unsuccessfully. You simplified greatly. This is the way it should be and it should not be considered throwing your partner under the bus. I'm through with this post because some are just not listening.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by DG

Thank you. I have been trying to make this point unsuccessfully. You simplified greatly. This is the way it should be and it should not be considered throwing your partner under the bus. I'm through with this post because some are just not listening.

A few years back, a famous, beloved local umpire was working the plate. I had worked many games with him over the years. One night, working a Pony game under the lights, I called a balk on a pitcher for throwing to F3 who was playing 15 feet off the base and was not even close to having a play on R1, who was only a few feet off the base. The pitcher thought F3 was holding the runner. My partner came out and made a big spectacle of overruling me. He said he'd never heard of such a rule. I stood my ground, and did not back off my call. He told me that I was responsible if there was a protest and I said "fine with me." I brought the play up at the next association meeting and was vindicated. He then grudgingly admitted that I had gotten the call right.

That was throwing me under the bus for making a correct call.