The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Baseball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 18, 2002, 01:34am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 68
Angry

Runner at first, hard hit grounder up the middle, second base side. 2B makes a good backhand going towards the bag, meanwhile SS is converging towards the bag for a double play. 2B reaches into his glove and holds out his right arm to hand the ball to a bewildered SS trying to get out of the way on the OF side of 2B. As 2B steps on the bag and holds the ball out to be taken by the SS, the ball falls onto the ground. The runner runs past the bag and notices the ball on the ground and scuffles back to the bag while the fielders grab the ball and try to tag the runner. Tell tale sign to me that the ball may have come loose prior to forcing the runner out. I call him safe and not without question from the coach. I ruled the runner safe given that I never actually saw that there was voluntary release to give the ball to the SS as the 2B's body blocked my view of the exchange. I know it is a kind of "had to see it" deal, however I felt that voluntary release came more into play than anything else. Your thoughts. JT
__________________
It's nothing until you call it!
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 18, 2002, 08:02am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,716
Not quite sure if I can picture the play the way it really happened, from you explanation. However, it seems that if 2B had possesion of the ball when he stepped on second then we have an out. Force play. If the ball was dropped in the exchange, then that is after the fact.

Just commenting on what I think, you wrote.

Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 18, 2002, 09:33am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Newburgh NY
Posts: 1,822
Originally posted by soonerfan

I ruled the runner safe given that I never actually saw that there was voluntary release to give the ball to the SS as the 2B's body blocked my view of the exchange. I know it is a kind of "had to see it" deal, however I felt that voluntary release came more into play than anything else. Your thoughts. JT

The Term Voluntary release is used to define a "catch vs. No catch"


From the definition of Catch in OBR rule 2 - definitions

In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional.

Your situation has nothing to do with determining catch vs. no catch. The runner may indeed be safe but not for the reason you quoted.

This play IMO comes under the definition of TAG

OBR rule 2

A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his hand or glove holding the ball, while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove.


As 2B steps on the bag and holds the ball out to be taken by the SS, the ball falls onto the ground.

This is where one would have to be there, but the question to be answered is:

In your judgement did F4 at the time of the touch of the second base bag hold the ball securely and firmly before he flipped the ball to F6? That's umpire judgement, however, in determining your ruling the term "voluntary realease" has nothing to do with it as this isn't a ctach vs. no catch situation. This is a TAG situatiuon (either the runner or the bag)

Pete Booth
__________________
Peter M. Booth
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 18, 2002, 04:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 68
Unhappy

Fellas,

The whole problem is that it was unclear that he actually had a secure hold on the ball as he touched the bag in an attempt to hand the ball off to the shortstop. Again his body cut me offand it seemed to all happen at once. The "voluntary release" was a bad choice of words, "bobble" or "secure hold" maybe. Perhaps this will clear some up. JT
__________________
It's nothing until you call it!
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 18, 2002, 11:08pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,716
Pete touched on what I was also thinking of. A while ago there was good article written that was published on the internet about "Catch or Tag". If anyone out there remembers this, chime in, I think once it is read it may help you understand the difference.



Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:33am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1