Sending a "message"

[kylejt]

It's not morality, it's ethics. Everyone has their bar set at a different level in order for them to sleep at night.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Ump153

That's one way to be seen as a moral person; redfine morality.

It brings to mind a great saying from the 90's. "That depends on what the meaning of "is" is."

The President-elect thanks you for your support!

[Ump153]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The President-elect thanks you for your support!

I hope you noticed the sarcasm dripping off the page. I was, of course, referring to the man who referred to himself as the "first black president", William Jefferson Clinton.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Yeah, I recognized the quote. So now we have the second! Whoopie.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Look, if I have to resort to miscalling ball/strike, safe/out to manage a situation in a game, I'm not doing my job. A FYC is just that. And those are followed by the FYP, and someone (us) gets hurt.

Why even start down that road?

FYC is only effective when both teams get IT. FYC is NOT game management. Obviously you don't know what IT is. I would advise you not to use a FYC since you don't get IT.

[PeteBooth]

Ok what Game management skills?

Here is the situation:

Let's say 1-1 on B1.

Next pitch is a Good hook by F1 on the outside Corner which you call strike 2 B1 takes exception.

So far no problem , HOWEVER,

He now proceeds to draw a line around the plate area and say "Hey Blue I could not have hit that pitch with a tree trunk" or something along those lines.

Now you have a player OBVIOUSLY showing you up in FRONT of the other players, coaching staff and fans watching the game.

What are you going to do?

At this point you have 2 choices

1. Dump him or

2. Possibly keep him in the game and also get your POINT across to EVERYONE that you will NOT tolerate such antics.

IMO, the aforementioned scenario is the crux of my OP.


For those that do not subscribe or think that the FYC is unethical etc. You simply dump him OR

You can send a message

Take your pick

Pete Booth

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Ok what Game management skills?

Here is the situation:

Let's say 1-1 on B1.

Next pitch is a Good hook by F1 on the outside Corner which you call strike 2 B1 takes exception.

So far no problem , HOWEVER,

He now proceeds to draw a line around the plate area and say "Hey Blue I could not have hit that pitch with a tree trunk" or something along those lines.

Now you have a player OBVIOUSLY showing you up in FRONT of the other players, coaching staff and fans watching the game.

What are you going to do?

At this point you have 2 choices

1. Dump him or

2. Possibly keep him in the game and also get your POINT across to EVERYONE that you will NOT tolerate such antics.

IMO, the aforementioned scenario is the crux of my OP.


For those that do not subscribe or think that the FYC is unethical etc. You simply dump him OR

You can send a message

Take your pick

Pete Booth

And before you pick, you might ask yourself: "Which option wold B1 choose?"

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

FYC is only effective when both teams get IT. FYC is NOT game management. Obviously you don't know what IT is. I would advise you not to use a FYC since you don't get IT.

Oh, I get IT. IT is a childish way to thump your chest, and let everyone know you're in charge. Sorry, I don't subscribe to it.

And Pete, anyone who draws pictures for me in the dirt is gone. Would anyone really allow that to happen, and just miscall the next pitch to get even with him? That's insane.

The "I'll teach you..." mentality is exactly what that umpire in the youtube video is doing. Raise your hand if you thought what he did, a classic FYC, is okay?

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Ok what Game management skills?

Here is the situation:

Let's say 1-1 on B1.

Next pitch is a Good hook by F1 on the outside Corner which you call strike 2 B1 takes exception.

So far no problem , HOWEVER,

He now proceeds to draw a line around the plate area and say "Hey Blue I could not have hit that pitch with a tree trunk" or something along those lines.

Now you have a player OBVIOUSLY showing you up in FRONT of the other players, coaching staff and fans watching the game.

What are you going to do?

At this point you have 2 choices

1. Dump him or

2. Possibly keep him in the game and also get your POINT across to EVERYONE that you will NOT tolerate such antics.

IMO, the aforementioned scenario is the crux of my OP.


For those that do not subscribe or think that the FYC is unethical etc. You simply dump him OR

You can send a message

Take your pick

Pete Booth

If you keep him in the game, and send a message, you set up the next umpire working one of his games to clean up the mess. Dump him and the message is crystal clear.


Tim.

[MajorDave]

I would have to say, dump him unless the coach gets him before you do. I had that once. After a called strike on the outside corner, a child prodigy, 18YO summer travel ball tourney, D-1 early signee, son of an ex-Cincinnati Reds pitcher actually stepped out in front of the plate and turned to me and did a long look while bending over like he was inspecting the outside edge of the plate. I backed up, took my mask off and was about to step toward his dugout to dump him when the coach ran out of the dugout saying "I've got this blue" and take him off the field while giving him an earful.

I told the coach I was still ejecting him and he said that's fine.

In this example and my own story, I vote dump.

My FYC is for the coaches running up the score as in my reply to the original post above in this thread.

This morals and ethics discussion is going nowhere with some of these guys and quite frankly getting a little boring. We aren't going to change each other's minds, I don't think. At least we aren't getting into the sewer like some threads do.

[TheSlav]

Originally Posted by Ump153

That's one way to be seen as a moral person; redfine morality.

It brings to mind a great saying from the 90's. "That depends on what the meaning of "is" is."

Is telling everyone a strike pitch is a ball, when in fact you know it to be a strike, telling the truth? If you believe it is, read no further. You wont understand, anyway.

I would, obviously, disagree with about everything in your post. I have never had to resort to a FYC. It has not caused any problems. Ejections? About 3 a year out of 90 or so games. I am capable of communicating my displeasure and my expectations without lying and without tossing everyone who pisses me off and without becoming a doormat. I'm sorry if you haven't developed that ability.

Your "if so, I don't want to be right" logic sounds romantic, but my credibility and reputation are more important to me. If lying works for you and comes easy to you, by all means, use it. I believe in more direct and easily understood communtication.

Morality does not have the same hard and fast definition as you might believe.

FROM THE STANFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PHILOSOPHY:
The term “morality” can be used either

1. descriptively to refer to a code of conduct put forward by a society or,
1. some other group, such as a religion, or
2. accepted by an individual for her own behavior or
2. normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.

Neither does the rule book. All I am saying is calling people liars and cheaters just because they don't subscribe to the same theory as you do is not the best way to get your point across. Neither is questioning their morality.
I would ask that in the future you leave your questioning of my morality or honesty at the door. You don't know me that well, sir.

I would think everybody on this board cares about their credibility and reputation, don't you?

Anyway, I think the FYC, or whatever you want to refer to it as, is easily understood, even at the HS level. Note I added you communicate to the player or the coach what happened which includes that the players behavior is unacceptable and can result in ejection. I just think most prefer the option to modify their behavior on their own before I act. I am just relaying my experience with the matter.

Sorry you thought the term doormat referred to you specifically or to anyone who shares your point of view. I don't have a huge problem with either approach, I think you have to do something in those situation to penalize the behavior or you leave a bigger problem for the next guy.

The number of ejections you cited is about the same number of legit FYC calls in lieu of possible ejections I would expect, it's not an every game event. I have about the same # of ejections (usually coaches).

Coaches and fans probably "see" more FYC's and its cousin the perceived "make-up call" then actually occur. But you're going to battle that perception regardless of what you do.

To each his own. The only wrong answer IMO is to ignore the behavior entirely.

Peace my brothers.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Oh, I get IT. IT is a childish way to thump your chest, and let everyone know you're in charge. Sorry, I don't subscribe to it.

And Pete, anyone who draws pictures for me in the dirt is gone. Would anyone really allow that to happen, and just miscall the next pitch to get even with him? That's insane.

The "I'll teach you..." mentality is exactly what that umpire in the youtube video is doing. Raise your hand if you thought what he did, a classic FYC, is okay?

There's nothing better than when they draw the line in the dirt indicating where the pitch was and then telling the batter (that batter only) that's your strike zone the rest of the day. What's more fun dumping them or watching them flail at pitches the rest of the day. Like I said you don't get IT. FYC in my opinion is not appropriate for LL, High School and College. These players haven't been around long enough to know any better. At least for me it has to be "higher level" baseball. Generally speaking they know where the line is drawn, they know how to question and complain without "showing you up". Over the years I've only done the FYC about 3 times and each time message was sent and the message was understood. You don't subscribe to it that's fine just don't imply that those that do are childish. That is .......well childish.

[bluehair]

I don't see why a well placed FYC isn't appropriate in select youth or HS ball. They should be experienced enough to "get it" or "learn it".

This week the home team F2 batting (borderline unsportsman when visitors started to catch-up to them) jumps out of the box after a strike 1, demonstrating his displeasure at the call. HC coach started yelling for him to get back in the box and his teammates said the same thing. It was obvious that this HS junior had maturity issues. I directed him to get back in and he complied, but didn't like being told to do anything.

His complaining in both halves of innings resulted in K3 (10 inches outside). The coach and his teammates started screaming...at him. The team "got it". His coach thanked me after the inning...he "got it". He sat F2 the rest of the game to "consider it".

This was a fall ball game where player development is the reason that they play in football season. The FYC at lower levels is a teaching tool that I use judiciously/very rarely.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

For those that do not subscribe or think that the FYC is unethical etc. You simply dump him OR

You can send a message

Take your pick

Pete Booth

I'll take door number three...I'll dump him AND send a message. I've never met a competent umpire who allows players to draw in the dirt and stick around long enough to admire their work.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

I'll take door number three...I'll dump him AND send a message. I've never met a competent umpire who allows players to draw in the dirt and stick around long enough to admire their work.

Hey, Be carefull getting off your high horse.