Getting Tuss's EJ thread back

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Obviously, you have never tried it.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by rei

Obviously, you have never tried it.

I know George Thompson.

Another case of someone taking something that had been around for decades, used in training in a number of occupations, giving it a name and claiming it as his own, then finding gullible people to believe he was presenting something more than common sense and getting them to pay for it.

Hope you enjoyed the book.

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

I know George Thompson.

Another case of someone taking something that had been around for decades, used in training in a number of occupations, giving it a name and claiming it as his own, then finding gullible people to believe he was presenting something more than common sense and getting them to pay for it.

Hope you enjoyed the book.

I did thanks.

NCAA thought enough of it to have it presented to soccer and baseball officials over the last few years at regional clinics. While what he is writing is certainly not anything earth shattering new, it is presented in a easy to follow format, and described well. It also works the first time you use it.

I smell envy.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rei

I smell envy.

I smell a farm.

[RPatrino]

Bovine Excrement. The number one cause of Global Warming, btw.

[TussAgee11]

Let me take care of some house keeping first:

To Pete Booth

Maybe that is how it is in your area or the Adult Leagues that you know. But extrapolating that out to my situation seems too much of a blanket template to start all adult league situations with. Why not just take what I said at the start to be true, because it is. The league is comprised mainly of men who are content to get away from the family for a Sunday morning double header, have a couple of beers in the parking lot after the game with some sandwiches, and go home. Most of them are totally relaxed, having been around baseball most of their lives, at levels a lot more important than an over 30 league. They, on the whole, don't flip a s*** when something doesn't go their way.

Sure, there are usual suspects, but every league, adult, youth, HS, softball, badminton has those. But don't read every situation thinking it is like one that could happen at your local field just because they are both adult leagues.

Okay, now to the important stuff....
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First off,

I hinted at this in my OP on the other thread, where I could have gone wrong was when I replied back to him the 2nd time the same way. It turned it into a pissing contest. Originally, I thought perhaps he didn't hear me the first time, as I was speaking softly and calmly, a little bit below his own level. Looking back on it, this just turned it into, as I said, a pissing contest.

I here what you guys are saying, it is something that I learned a great deal about at a basketball clinic several months ago. Let them know you're listening.

I guess some of the reason why I didn't utilize this technique was because it was a player. At that clinic, we talked about coaches (in basketball). How does this technique transfer to a player? Its something I haven't been trained in, and don't know anything about. Surely, it can't be the same.

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Second off,

I do realize that I turned it into a pissing contest. I messed that part up pretty good. Obviously, it didn't turn out well. Hindsight is 20/20, maybe its better that he blew his fuse so I know what NOT to do next time. Just adds to my game management experience.


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Third off,

Those who, in the other thread, hinted that they would just ignore a scream at you at a player's top of his lungs (vicious screaming, neck muscles tensing up, I mean, REALLY coming at you), wow. I believe my EJ to be a good one in penalizing unsportsmanlike behavior and keeping decorum, I did from the start. My OP was looking for info on, overall, what I could have done different. Thanks to those who have responded.

Perhaps not the best EJ because I had to do it though, as has been pointed out in the thread. But once it got to that point, we all agree that the booger needs to be picked, yes?

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In closing, so I can continue to learn from the thread.

1) How does the idea of "letting them know they're being heard" differ between a player and a manager? What are some possible conversations that need to go different ways, and at what time, because somebody is a player as opposed to a coach?

Thanks

[tcarilli]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

1) How does the idea of "letting them know they're being heard" differ between a player and a manager? What are some possible conversations that need to go different ways, and at what time, because somebody is a player as opposed to a coach?

I don't think it necessarily should differ. Most of the stuff we get in baseball is long distance sniping from dugouts. In that case, a glance at the dugout will let them know you can hear them. (By glance I do not mean whip your head around whip your mask off and stare the dugout down. I mean a casual look toward the dugout with your mask on if you are working the plate and they are chirping about balls and strikes. If I'm working the bases and I hear something about a balk, I will often just touch my ear signifying "I hear you." Again the movements are casual. Depending on my relationship with the team sometimes I will say just audible to the "offender" "I hear you" in a casual tone. If they respond with the "don't look in here!" nonsense. Hold up the stop sign. Remember if they are speaking loudly enough for you to hear them they want you to hear them. Think about all of the things that are said in dugouts that we can't hear.

Immediate emotional responses, like the one in your situation, can be dealt with in much the same way. When the runner declares his belief, you can just glance at him, but generally, if it does not involve immediate histrionics, and a question is not asked, moving on to your next position is likely to be the best response.

There is a difference between arguing with and "entertaining" participants. While managers (head coaches) are allowed to argue, players and assistants generally are not. So don't engage them in argument. That doesn't, however, mean that you should not allow them to address you in any way shape of form.

[tcarilli]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

...I believe my EJ to be a good one in penalizing unsportsmanlike behavior and keeping decorum, I did from the start.

Do you really think so? Given that it likely could have been avoided? I'm not saying that he didn't need to go for his behavior, but if we are the proximate cause for the behavior is that really a good ejection?

[TussAgee11]

Tony - thanks for the stuff about player vs coach, long distance sniping vs in close stuff. That is the stuff that I need to hear more and more about in the years to come. Your post is certainly a good start.

As for good EJ bad EJ, and perhaps this will clear up the coach at Louisville, RPatino's, concerns;

To start, I thought it was a good EJ in the sense that he needed to be EJ'd after the yelling spasm. Perhaps we didn't get there the best way though.

Now, I still think its a good EJ in the sense that he needed to be EJ'd after his neck vein popped in 2. But I also think I could have done things differently and we wouldn't have gotten to that point.

If that makes it a bad EJ, then so be it. The way I'm viewing it is a warrented EJ after some missed game management opportunities on my part. Next time, I will explore other avenues, and if he blows a gasket again, I'll have to dump him again then too. And then I'll have to tweak again for the next time, and again and again...

I'm not meaning to sound belligerent, I am soaking in what you're saying, in fact, I want to hear more. I wish I could do some roleplaying excercises (the umpiring kind) or something. I feel like I just have very limited practice at the elite level in dealing with this stuff.

Only time I get practice is when this crap happens, then I have to come here and post to learn about what should be done next time.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE=TussAgee11]Let me take care of some house keeping first:

To Pete Booth

Most of them are totally relaxed, having been around baseball most of their lives, at levels a lot more important than an over 30 league. They, on the whole, don't flip a s*** when something doesn't go their way.

From the original OP

former R1, at top of his lungs, viciously, ready to pop a vain, as loud as possible, looking right at me, now somewhere between 5 and 10 feet away (and when I say screaming, I mean, SCREAMING): HE WAS OFF THE BAG!

So they do not flip a switch huh?

I do not care where you umpire, mens adult leagues are MENS ADULT LEAGUES and you have your fair share of head cases.

You would not see this at the Collegiate, HS varsity or Legion level.

If a player did scream like you mentioned above behind my back at a HS Varsity or Legion Game my next statement would be

"skip we have a substitution correct"

and the Problem would be solved.

The aforementioned technique DOES NOT work in a Cry Baby League such as an adult mens league game.

As you continue to umpire for this so called "calm league" you will encounter more and more of these type problems.

Game management skills used at a College, HS Varsity or Legion level game simply do not work when it comes to rec league type games such as the mens adult leagues. They are lax in dealing out punishments etc.

I agree with Ozzy. You should not have engaged the player PERIOD. Simply walk away and as long as the player is not acting like a lounatic it's time to play ball. As soon as he "took it a step further" by screaming it's time to go.

If you did not engage the player in the first place would the incident have escalated as it did - we do not know but as mentioned it does not surprise me when it comes to mens adult leagues and NO it is not just in my area.

Pete Booth

[RPatrino]

I agree with Pete, 100%. Most game management techiques don't work with Men's Adult League or similar type games. The simple reason is, there are no consequences for bad behavior. The consequence of the last blow up I got to "manage" was one less veteran umpire to work their leagues. They couldn't pay me enought to baby sit them.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by rei

I did thanks.

I smell envy.

Of course you do. He got to pick your pocket and that of millions of other gullible types that are looking for something to make them feel superior before I did.

But he provides the same enouragement as P.T. Barnum. I haven't given up yet.

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Of course you do. He got to pick your pocket and that of millions of other gullible types that are looking for something to make them feel superior before I did.

But he provides the same enouragement as P.T. Barnum. I haven't given up yet.

Pick my pocket?

Let's see:

VJ presented at NCAA clinic by a D1 umpire who is a cop too. He claims "You use this, you will have players/coaches THANKING you for how you handled things".

I immediately start to use it that very day in a soccer game. Keep a player in the game and deescalate a situation that would have normally been a HUGE blow up. After game, several players from both teams go out of their way to come over to me and shake my hand and say "Hey, that was great how you handled that".

I buy the book to learn more.

I have been PAID to present it to soccer referee's in Oregon.

My ejections in baseball are WAY down.

Players and coaches are glad to see me.

NO "out of control" situations since I started using it.

Yeah, I would say ol' George has "taken" me. About the only thing he picked from my pockets is the inept way I dealt with things before!