Getting Tuss's EJ thread back

[tcarilli]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Anything I could have done to prevent it? If no EJ, what would you done instead?

Tuss,

If he doesn't ask a question, why respond to him? That way you don't give him a chance to build steam. Your response that he was on the bag really amounts to nothing more than a sort of pissing contest, aka "he said, she said." Those things invariable turn into rabbit-season duck season...bang. With the umpire playing the part of Daffy Duck. If you make the call and move toward your next position and he says "he was off the bag" quietly as you implied, let it go keep moving. If he yells at you, try turning around holding your hand up as in a stop sign and saying something like "let it go." If he yells again say something like, "If you don't stop yelling, I will have to run you." This puts the ball in his court and you have warned him essentially twice.

Originally Posted by tcarilli

Tuss,

If he doesn't ask a question, why respond to him? That way you don't give him a chance to build steam. Your response that he was on the bag really amounts to nothing more than a sort of pissing contest, aka "he said, she said." Those things invariable turn into rabbit-season duck season...bang. With the umpire playing the part of Daffy Duck. If you make the call and move toward your next position and he says "he was off the bag" quietly as you implied, let it go keep moving. If he yells at you, try turning around holding your hand up as in a stop sign and saying something like "let it go." If he yells again say something like, "If you don't stop yelling, I will have to run you." This puts the ball in his court and you have warned him essentially twice.

This would have been an excellent way to handle it.

It is also almost exactly how Verbal Judo works.

[LMan]

Meh. The fact that the player chose to show him up by screaming it for a third time says he was tired and didn't feel like playing any more that day. When a player makes sure that the entire county hears it, he's publicly challenged the umpire and raised the stakes for himself.

"if you don't stop yelling, Junior, you'll go to timeout."


For a head coach, OK...maybe. For a jackhole adult-league player who seemingly wants to provoke, nowayinhell. Perfect recipie for an out-of-control game the rest of the way.



and yes, I know, I'll never work above rec-league, Tball, Jackhole Muni League, blah blah

Originally Posted by LMan

Meh. The fact that the player chose to show him up by screaming it for a third time says he was tired and didn't feel like playing any more that day. When a player makes sure that the entire county hears it, he's publicly challenged the umpire and raised the stakes for himself.

"if you don't stop yelling, Junior, you'll go to timeout."


For a head coach, OK...maybe. For a jackhole adult-league player who seemingly wants to provoke, nowayinhell. Perfect recipie for an out-of-control game the rest of the way.

Actually, replying back to him is being argumentative. Of course he is going to escalate the situation.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by rei

It is also almost exactly how Verbal Judo works.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by rei

Actually, replying back to him is being argumentative. Of course he is going to escalate the situation.

Let's agree to disagree (A2D) here. If anyone 'questions' a call with an actual POV and not yelling to all of Calaveras County (not a general "YGBSM!") I'll use Garth's "Verbal Firearms" 5-word response (he.was.on.the.bag). For a player, that's enough. Then I'm walking to my position.

If I hear a player 'escalate', he might get TheLook or nothing. Once more.

A scream at my back, begging to depart? That's not 'argumentative' on my part, it's taking out the trash. Between us, only one of us is being paid to enforce the rules of baseball, and it ain't him. I'm not talking down a jumper from a tall building here.

/mycommentsonthistopic

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Obviously, you have never tried it.

Originally Posted by msavakinas

they are trying to prevent it from getting to that... which is why Tony said "Why respond in the first place"

He's saying if he didn't respond in the first place, because there was no question asked, it might not have gotten to the point it did.

Exactly!

When arrow thrown at head, move head.

[tcarilli]

Originally Posted by LMan

Meh. The fact that the player chose to show him up by screaming it for a third time says he was tired and didn't feel like playing any more that day. When a player makes sure that the entire county hears it, he's publicly challenged the umpire and raised the stakes for himself.

"if you don't stop yelling, Junior, you'll go to timeout."

Recall, in the original post, the player's initial reactions was not to yell at the umpire but to say "he's off the bag." If he yell's to start with you have to handle it differently. Maybe you start with "Let it go!" or "knock it off" stated vehemently with your hand up in the stop sign.

The question was could I have done something differently. Here we are trying to prevent the issue from getting to the third time. Not what to do after the third time. I think it important that we stick to the question at hand ie, could I have prevented this? The question was not what do you do when someone yells at you for the third time. The reason it is important is that different question require different answers. Recall in Tuss's situation he responded to the player not once, but twice hence my "rabbit season duck season" metaphor. So the starting point is no question asked no response needed and moving to your next position.

Other things equal, we would prefer not to run individuals. Which is not to say "let them sh!t on you," instead it's to say it seems to work better if we keep it from escalating to the sh!tting by addressing situations appropriately before they escalate.

So, LMan, lets address the question posed by Tuss here. We agree that when somebody yells for the third time he needs to be excused from further participation in reindeer games.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by rei

Obviously, you have never tried it.

I know George Thompson.

Another case of someone taking something that had been around for decades, used in training in a number of occupations, giving it a name and claiming it as his own, then finding gullible people to believe he was presenting something more than common sense and getting them to pay for it.

Hope you enjoyed the book.

[tcarilli]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And don't do anything about the person that threw the arrow at your head.

Resist force with similar force. An arrow thrown at my head does not require a nuclear bomb be dropped on the thrower. Again, in Tuss's situation if you think there is a need to respond why not try just holding up your hand in the stop sign so that he knows you heard him?

I think most comments directed at umpires need to be addressed in some fashion. I liken it to the situation where a parent is on the phone and the child wants to speak to the parent. "Mom." says the child. If the parent ignores the child "MOm!" escalates the child. If the parent ignores again, "MOM!" shouts the child. If the parent ignores again, "MOM!!!MOM!!!" yells the child. At some point the parent yells back and we have a mess. If the parent lets the child know she heard him the first time, the kid typically goes away for a while. He may come back but it will not be to yell the second time. Start the process again. Participants are a lot like kids, sometimes that just want you to know that you heard them. If you address it early, it usually won't escalate. If it does, then you have run people.

If they know you can hear them, the generally don't bother you as much. There is a reason they are loud enough for you to hear them...because they want you to hear them. If you ignore them, they only get louder to assure themselves that you can hear them. If you continuously ignore them, they will get louder until you've let them know you've heard them or your sh!t splatters on your partner.

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

I know George Thompson.

Another case of someone taking something that had been around for decades, used in training in a number of occupations, giving it a name and claiming it as his own, then finding gullible people to believe he was presenting something more than common sense and getting them to pay for it.

Hope you enjoyed the book.

I did thanks.

NCAA thought enough of it to have it presented to soccer and baseball officials over the last few years at regional clinics. While what he is writing is certainly not anything earth shattering new, it is presented in a easy to follow format, and described well. It also works the first time you use it.

I smell envy.

[tcarilli]

is this thread a case in point?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rei

I smell envy.

I smell a farm.