Caught Foul Ball off of Equipment

[Fritz]

Was PU today in a 14U league game and got overruled by my partner on a call but can't find a rule to back him up (no argument from either bench).

Sitch: R2, R1, 2 outs, 1-2 count to the batter. Pitch comes in and batter fouls it straight back where it hits the catcher's mask (not his mitt) and bounces up. Catcher wheels around, dives, and makes the catch.

I call the batter out, caught foul ball. My partner, a guy with a number of years more experience than I and someone I respect, comes in calling time. We conference and he tells me that as soon as the ball hit the catcher's mask, it is a dead foul ball and can't be caught. I said "aren't you thinking about a foul tip vs. foul ball?" He says nope, foul ball off of equipment is dead.

So I sell it to the two coaches, they say okay and the kid strikes out swinging on the next pitch anyway.

But I've been going thru both my Fed and ORB books and case studies, and can't find the rule my partner is citing. Did we kick it or get it right?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Was PU today in a 14U league game and got overruled by my partner on a call but can't find a rule to back him up (no argument from either bench).

Sitch: R2, R1, 2 outs, 1-2 count to the batter. Pitch comes in and batter fouls it straight back where it hits the catcher's mask (not his mitt) and bounces up. Catcher wheels around, dives, and makes the catch.

I call the batter out, caught foul ball. My partner, a guy with a number of years more experience than I and someone I respect, comes in calling time. We conference and he tells me that as soon as the ball hit the catcher's mask, it is a dead foul ball and can't be caught. I said "aren't you thinking about a foul tip vs. foul ball?" He says nope, foul ball off of equipment is dead.

So I sell it to the two coaches, they say okay and the kid strikes out swinging on the next pitch anyway.

But I've been going thru both my Fed and ORB books and case studies, and can't find the rule my partner is citing. Did we kick it or get it right?

He's right.

[Ump29]

Correct call - foul ball / dead ball once it hits catchers mask. After that it cannot be caught. No rule ref available now but maybe someone else can cite one.
Edited for spelling.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Ump29

Correct call - foul ball / dead ball once it hits catchers mask. After that it cannot be caught. No rule ref available now but maybe someone else can cite one.
Edited for spelling.

A FOUL TIP - is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand.

Tim.

[dash_riprock]

NCAA & OBR are similar, except a foul tip can only be caught by the catcher.

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

A FOUL TIP - is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand.

Tim.

Yeah, we are all in agreement that it wasn't a foul tip because in this case, it didn't go directly to his mitt. And I noted the "not a catch if it is a rebound" in the rules as well Tim, but assumed that this applied only to determining a caught foul tip since that is the reference the language is under.

Like other posters, we think the rule is a dead foul ball, no catch allowed in my sitch, but I always like being able to cite a rule reference or case study to back myself up and haven't been able to find one yet. Does anyone know the specific reference for this?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Fritz

but assumed

If you change your assumption, you'll have the rule to cite.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Does anyone know the specific reference for this?

Look in the definitions section (all codes) for Foul Ball and Foul Tip.

[FTVMartin]

A foul ball is a batted ball that .... while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foriegn to the natural ground.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Yeah, we are all in agreement that it wasn't a foul tip because in this case, it didn't go directly to his mitt. And I noted the "not a catch if it is a rebound" in the rules as well Tim, but assumed that this applied only to determining a caught foul tip since that is the reference the language is under.

Not a catch means not a catch. It means it becomes an uncaught foul. The part of Tim's post that is in bold explains it for any part of the definition of a catch.

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Not a catch means not a catch. It means it becomes an uncaught foul. The part of Tim's post that is in bold explains it for any part of the definition of a catch.

Had several buddies working on this yesterday during a break in games; we all agreed that NFHS clearly states a foul ball off of the catcher is dead immediately. But none of us could find a specific rule reference in ORB that said the same thing. We agreed to fall back on the definition of a catch, as cited by Tim, even though this clause is only listed under the definition of a caught foul tip - which is not the sitch I had. Just wish ORB would be just as plain as NFHS.

[bluezebra]

Pop foul. Catcher drifts under ball. Ball bounces off his mitt, but he catches the rebound.

What's the call? FOUL BALL? CATCH ?

Bob

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

YGBSM.

Does OBR define a foul ball?

Does OBR describe "dead" balls?

Does 1 + 1 = 2?

I'm sure Bluezebra is asking "why" one (the OP) would be a foul ball and another (his play) would be a caught fly and an out. After all, they are both batted balls deflecting off a defensive player and then being "caught."

Just because that's the way it is is the answer.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

Pop foul. Catcher drifts under ball. Ball bounces off his mitt, but he catches the rebound.

What's the call? FOUL BALL? CATCH ?

Bob

It is a catch by definition. A sharp, direct foul off the mask that doesn't first touch the catcher's mitt is NOT a catch by definition.

[mikebran]

Originally Posted by Fritz

So I sell it to the two coaches, they say okay

Wow, what a salesman! Talked them into it, heh?