PBUC 3.14

greymule · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 01, 2002, 12:44pm

Can anyone clarify the following from PBUC 3.14?

Play: Bases loaded, two out, score tied in bottom of the ninth inning. Batter hits home run out of ball park. Runner on first, thinking home run automatically wins the game, leaves the baseline and heads towards dugout. He is declared out before the runner from third reaches home plate. Other runners continue around the bases and eventually touch home.

Ruling: No runs score; this is a time play. Game continues in the top of the tenth inning with the score tied.

Fine, but why the clause "before the runner from third reaches home plate"? Even if the runner from third crossed home before the runner the runner from first was called out for abandoning effort, wouldn't that runner's out be the third out on a force play and nullify the run anyway? Or is it just the batter who has to touch first (and the runner from third to touch home for the winning run)? Don't all forced runners have to touch the next base?

Rich Ives · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 01, 2002, 01:02pm

The runner was declared out for abandoning. He was not put out by the defense (appeal or otherwise) as a result of a force play. Therefore the out is not the result of a force.

Jackie W. · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 01, 2002, 02:35pm

The runner at 1st base should have allowed the 3rd base runner to score before he left the field because of the timing play. Force play is not in effect because of the home run.
Jackie W.

Rich Ives · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 01, 2002, 03:01pm

Jackie - the force IS in effect. If a runner missed a force base then the defense could appeal it and get an out. If it was the third out no runs would score.

greymule · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 01, 2002, 03:03pm

Rich: What if the batter had abandoned his effort to go to first after the run scored? If the third out is made by the batter before he reaches first base, no run can score, regardless of why or how the batter is out. Is a runner forced from first to second any different?

Jackie: The home run does not remove any force plays. If the runner on first missed second while trotting around the bases and was called out on appeal, that would be a force play and no runs would score, regardless of whether another runner scored before the out.

Jackie W. · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 01, 2002, 03:51pm

I was viewing this post with my partner when I sent in the reply. The funny thing is I asked him if he was absolutely certain that there wasn't a force play in effect. His reply is that once the runner from 3rd crossed home plate, the game would be over.(being that it was the bottom of the 9th) So, was my gut feeling correct when I asked him if he was sure?

Jackie W.

Rich Ives · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 01, 2002, 04:29pm

Greymule: to get the force out, the defense would have to appeal. Being called out for abandonong does not meet the requirement - and

Jackie: Both the runner from third must touch home AND the batter must touch first (see 4.09). As for the other runners, it's ambiguous/undefined.

IndianaUmpRef · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 03, 2002, 12:35am

Rich:

Just wanted to clarify:

You said that "Both the runner from third must touch home AND the batter must touch first (see 4.09). As for the other runners, it's ambiguous/undefined."

Are you saying that runners that were originally at 1st and 2nd do not have to advance to next base? I would think those could be appealed and be called the 3rd out due to force. Am I incorrect?

Good thread here.

Zach

Rich Coyle · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 03, 2002, 07:56am

A runner who is called out in a force situation is a forced out regardless of how he is called out.

In a bases loaded situation with two outs, all runners including the batter-runner must advance one base in order for the score to count.

The general rule is to remember that there is a force play in effect at the pitch, it doesn't go away until all runners including the b-r advance.

greymule · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 03, 2002, 08:37am

Rich Coyle's post states what I always believed, but both the PBUC and the OBR suggest that we're incorrect. Maybe there's some sort of exception when the game-winning run is involved.

The PBUC specifies "before the runner from third reaches home plate," which clearly implies that a runner out for abandoning effort, even to a forced base, AFTER the runner crosses home would not disallow the run.

OBR 4.09 (b) says, "When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has reached first base." It doesn't say "until all runners have reached the next base" or "the base to which they were forced."

I would think a ball hit over the fence is a play "which forces the runner on third to advance." Apparently, when the winning run is involved, only the batter and the runner from third have to proceed to the next base, and all the other two runners have to do is avoid being called out before the run scores. What if the runner from third scored, but the runner from first was called out for abandoning effort before the batter reached first base?

I think these particular variations are not too far-fetched.

Rich Ives · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 03, 2002, 10:25am

The "winning run" scenario in OBR 4.09 is a special case of the bases loaded situation, not a general rule for a mid-game two out bases loaded HR. In a mid-game situation the defense could appeal a missed force base and negate the runs.

For game-enders, a strict reading of 4.09 says only that the runner from third must touch home and the batter-runner must touch first. However, it also referes only to a bases loaded situation (runner from 3B forced), so in theory if there was no one on 2B, the runner from first (forced) would still have to touch 2B (Fred Merkle for example).

Another example of why the rules need a re-write.

Confusion with dual-sport umpires and fans may arise because in (some?) softball rules, all runner's must advance, per a discussion last year on the SB board at this site.

bob jenkins · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 03, 2002, 11:01am

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Ives
The "winning run" scenario in OBR 4.09 is a special case of the bases loaded situation, not a general rule for a mid-game two out bases loaded HR. In a mid-game situation the defense could appeal a missed force base and negate the runs.

IT's also a difference between OBR and FED -- in FED, all runners must advance.

I think OBR just took the easy way out -- why force (pun intended) the offense to go through the ritual of having all runners touch the next base when the game is ended anyway, everyone knows they know how to advance 90', etc.

Yes -- that logic could be applied to other situations -- why force everyone to run on a HR, for example. I think that's still there so the player can hear the cheers.

Jackie W. · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 03, 2002, 12:13pm

Good humor on the baserunning for the cheers, Bob! They would also miss out on all the pats on the butt and back!
I needed the laugh today. I'm tired of getting game cancellation calls because of the snow falling. People in Minnesota are paying for the mild winter.

Jackie

Bfair · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Apr 04, 2002, 09:09am

Specifically addressed in rule 4.09(b) of JEA:

Freix

Rich Ives · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Apr 04, 2002, 10:13am

First, the R3 to home and B-R to first only applies if it's a bases loaded situation.

Evans is wrong, in my opinion, for the bases loaded situation because:

There was a time when, if a batter hit a game winning HR in the last inning, only the "necessary" runs counted and the batter did not get credit for the home run. With the advent of the HR as "big deal" the exception was added to allow, not require the extra runs solely so the Big Dude would get the credit. It was a favor to the batter, and did not affect the outcome of the game. The sole intent of the exception was to get the batter credit. The notion that, as a bonus, the defense could get an inning ending out is ludicrous.