Neighborhood Play

[PeteBooth]

That statement inexperienced umpires is an oxy moron and I agree with RUT.

Just like when we played you get EXPERIENCE by playing not SITTING the PINE. "Someone" has to give us a chance. Just like when some of us graduated college and wanted that first job. Other than College we had NO experience other than our grade point average.

Hopefully an inexperienced official can get paired with an experienced official to promote advancement within the organization. If young umpires see that there is virtually no hope of getting these games membership will decline.

Typically what happens is "Politics" meaning the "top dogs" do not want to give up these games and are relunctant to train the new rookies who given the opportunity might actually replace them.

In Summary: This type of situation is an area by area answer. If umpires are in demand an assignor does his best to put the most qualified officials on the Legion/ CBL games but sometimes he/she simply cannot and the inexperienced offical will get their feet wet and IMO that is not a bad thing.

Pete Booth

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Please tell me that you only officiate children's ball! I would hate to think that you officiate on the 90' diamiond and are asking this question.

Yes, at this age level the "neighborhood play" is correct.

So I suppose you let the runners touch the bag with the "neighborhood play" too correct?

Tell me, how close is close enough? 2"? 6"? 3'?

Call what you see. It is REALLY good for your integrity.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by rei

Call what you see. It is REALLY good for your integrity.

Just as calling what's expected for the level you're working is good for your games and career.........

Do you force a fielder to leave his glove in a runners base path on a tag where the runner is sliding directly into a base, or do you allow them to swipe near the foot and get their hand out of the way............

I propose that it's better to call what you need to see.


Tim.

Originally Posted by jicecone

NJ ,you have to understand, if you have been asked to officiate Am Legion ball then you should have had enough experience to know that info, been better trained by your association or had that self determinations to be cracking the books for that type of info. Standing during warmups and watching and asking that question shows us that you are indeed a newbie.

Does that make you bad, NO. But Ozzy like myself, are asking why you were placed in a game by your assignor, over your head.

Making bad calls is troubling enough, being put into games that your not ready for causes problems for the teams, headaches for you and most of all discourages new officials from continuing.

Bob has given the most logical answer here but please spend time reading more books on officiating. This may be a source of info, but not the only one.
And as Ozzy has already said if your not tough enough for people you can't see, how are you going to last out on that diamond, face to face.

Good Luck

More rubbish.

It is interesting that many people think the neighborhood play is ok!

Now we have to allow phantom tags, runners to miss if they are "close enough", etc....

A BUNCH OF RUBBISH!!!

CALL THE GAME!

The ONLY reason you guys give the neighborhood play is to avoid the argument that will ensue. I have a very easy explanation to the coach coming out to argue that. "Coach, if your fielder would have touched the bag, all would be well".

The problem I have with any "phantom" type of play is that when are you "close enough"? I have a feeling that most answers are going to be "sometimes you have to umpire"...or something equally stupid sounding.

Flame away. I refuse to compromise my integrity.

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Just as calling what's expected for the level you're working is good for your games and career.........

Do you force a fielder to leave his glove in a runners base path on a tag where the runner is sliding directly into a base, or do you allow them to swipe near the foot and get their hand out of the way............

Well, I do know that I have had a pretty decent career! Certainly, call a runner safe at second because the SS did a "neighborhood play" hasn't hurt my career. It actually caused a DIII head coach to request me for his home games when I called the SS off the bag during a conference game. The defensive coach didn't even come out of the dug out! That coach had just won the DIII national championship the year before too.

I have NEVER had a very serious argument calling the "neighborhood play" safe if that is what I see. No, I don't always see the miss, and indeed, I don't look THAT hard for it. But if I see him miss, I am going with safe as the call. I am perfectly willing to "discuss" the play with the coach. I have never ejected a player and/or coach over this play. I HAVE gained a lot of respect as the guy that "calls what he sees". THAT has been good for my career, because almost every coach wants integrity when the big game is on the line.

Yes, I have called safe runners who were not tagged. The usual response from the head coach is not being pissed at me, but rather something to the effect of "Make the ^$#$$ing tag next time" to his fielder.

I am supposing that many guys that let the phantom plays stand are also the guys milking 12" off the plate for a strike too, just because the catcher stuck it?

[Tim C]

"I refuse to compromise my integrity."

I have worked with Rei several times over the years. I have a great respect for him.

Rei's schedule of games (both high school and college) has grown over the years because he is EXACTLY what he says he is.

I have worked with Rei (he was my BU) when there was an attempted steal of third. From an adjusted "C" Rei called a guy safe that appeared to be out by 10' to 15' . . . as the defensive coach started to approach my fellow crew mate he said: "Coach he has to tag the guy for an out, ask your third baseman if he made the tag?"

Even a quick look at F5 confirmed that there was no tag . . .

Could Rei have called the out . . . sure. But his integrity is so ingrained that would have been totally unlike him.

As I said earlier . . . times and things change . . . can we?

Regards,

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

From the OP

wood bat ball w/ American League rules

NO FPSR in Straight OBR

Therefore, are you going to allow the "neigborhood" in a game played by OBR rules?

Pete Booth

Pete,
Is there any amateur baseball league, regardless of rule set, that does not play with some sort of modified FPSR?
Unless you are doing pro ball F4 and F6 are protected by rule. I don't think we need to be further coddling them. If we're going to make R1 live by the rules we ought to make F4/F6 live by the rules.

[LMan]

this discussion appears to be veering away from the 'call the game they expect' by Mr Porter (IIRC, my memory may be hazy) article we are familiar with. Would that be the case?

Would you call a breaking ball in the dirt (with dust cloud) a strike, if you thought it crossed the batter's front knee?

Would you call a strike if F2 set up his mitt 2 balls (or pick your personal limit) outside and F1 nailed it with a fastball?

Just asking...I'm mildly surprised at who's arguing which POV here.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Tim C

"I refuse to compromise my integrity."

I have worked with Rei several times over the years. I have a great respect for him.

Rei's schedule of games (both high school and college) has grown over the years because he is EXACTLY what he says he is.

I have worked with Rei (he was my BU) when there was an attempted steal of third. From an adjusted "C" Rei called a guy safe that appeared to be out by 10' to 15' . . . as the defensive coach started to approach my fellow crew mate he said: "Coach he has to tag the guy for an out, ask your third baseman if he made the tag?"

Even a quick look at F5 confirmed that there was no tag . . .

Could Rei have called the out . . . sure. But his integrity is so ingrained that would have been totally unlike him.

As I said earlier . . . times and things change . . . can we?

Regards,

I am right with you. If a fielder pulls the glove up before the runner arrives, I will call the runner safe every time. Yes, the fielder needs to be able to take a throw and put the glove down and let the runner slide into it.

I had a play in a college game this year -- steal of third. I had a great angle and F5 took the throw too far forward and R2 slid into the back of the base. Throw beat R2 by a lot, but the glove never came within 4 inches of R2. Safe. No brainer. Took some heat from the defensive head coach, but like I told him: I'm paid to get that angle and I'm sure that F5 would tell you he never got close to the tag." An inning later, I get a semi-apology from the assistant working first base. Whatever.

I'm consistent and unapologetic and if it costs me games, so be it. I've probably hung up my college schedule (I travel too much for work and I don't need to spend my entire weekends working 18-inning doubleheaders in 2-man crews 150 miles or more from the house with Earl Weaver-wannabes and an ejection every other weekend), but it's the same all the way down the ladder for me, too.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Just as calling what's expected for the level you're working is good for your games and career.........

Do you force a fielder to leave his glove in a runners base path on a tag where the runner is sliding directly into a base, or do you allow them to swipe near the foot and get their hand out of the way............

I propose that it's better to call what you need to see.


Tim.

He better tag him if I am watching the play.

Now if I am in the middle of the diamond and I am a ways away I am not going to nit pick a tag to the millimeter. But if he wants to get a tag he better keep his glove down so that I can call the player out. I have never had a problem calling it that way my entire career. And if you know how to make a tag, you do not need to stay in the path of the runner.

Peace

Originally Posted by LMan

this discussion appears to be veering away from the 'call the game they expect' by Mr Porter (IIRC, my memory may be hazy) article we are familiar with. Would that be the case?

Would you call a breaking ball in the dirt (with dust cloud) a strike, if you thought it crossed the batter's front knee?

Would you call a strike if F2 set up his mitt 2 balls (or pick your personal limit) outside and F1 nailed it with a fastball?

Just asking...I'm mildly surprised at who's arguing which POV here.

Good point!

Just want to check. Are you one of those guys that won't call a curve ball caught at the belt? What about the fastball at the letters. BOTH are for sure strikes that few call, even though NCAA and NFHS wants these to be called strikes.

I call the high strike. It is hittable, and hittable for POWER! The low crap is bad for quick games. The angle the ball comes off the bat means a lot of hooks and spins, which means bad fielding.

So, shall we just call the WHOLE strike zone? LOL Nobody is going to do that, except in Little League.

In my mind, a bit of play in the strike zone is very different than phantom plays. There is no way for the offense to play against phantom plays, and these phantom plays are always "given" when the defense seems to have enough time to do them right.

With strike zone difference, it is a matter of the offense being able to work with/against it. A pitch 3" outside is VERY hittable for power. The low crap in the dirt is virtually un-hittable unless the batter gets VERY lucky.

So, while I will require a catcher to present a good looking strike to get a call, I will not give the phantom tag and neighborhood play. I think they are bad for learning baseball.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rei

Good point!

Just want to check. Are you one of those guys that won't call a curve ball caught at the belt? What about the fastball at the letters. BOTH are for sure strikes that few call, even though NCAA and NFHS wants these to be called strikes.

I call the high strike. It is hittable, and hittable for POWER! The low crap is bad for quick games. The angle the ball comes off the bat means a lot of hooks and spins, which means bad fielding.

So, shall we just call the WHOLE strike zone? LOL Nobody is going to do that, except in Little League.

I hate to break it to you, I call the entire strike zone as my judgment can call it and I have very little if any problems. I also have not worked a LL game since 1998 and I have not had any major problems.

I think we worry too much as umpires what people are going to think. I agree on some level that we should call the game a certain way, but calling balls and strikes, out and safe calls are some of the easiest things you can do because you have one call or the other. And the last time I checked there was not instant replay on some dirt patch they call a baseball field at the level most of us work. Even if you work a D1 game there are not many cameras or some fancy software to determine if you are an inch off the plate or if the 3rd cleat in the middle was on the base or not. In baseball is more about consistency and if a player cannot make a routine play, then you have to decide if they deserve what they earned. I have never had a problem calling the game the way I do and it certainly has not hurt my career. And I can guarantee you I have also not tried as hard as most people here seem to do.

Peace

[PeteBooth]

IMO calling the "neighborhood play" or "phantom tag" is NOT compromising one's integrity because it's called the SAME for both teams.

IMO, what compromises integrity is when one official is a "homer" and calls things one way for one team and completely different for the other team.

As long as an official is consistent for BOTH teams then IMO integrity is NOT an issue.

In conclusion IMO calling or not calling the neigborhood play/ phatom tag is not a question about integrity but a matter of one's style.

Pete Booth

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by rei

Good point!

Just want to check. Are you one of those guys that won't call a curve ball caught at the belt? What about the fastball at the letters. BOTH are for sure strikes that few call, even though NCAA and NFHS wants these to be called strikes.

I call the high strike. It is hittable, and hittable for POWER! The low crap is bad for quick games. The angle the ball comes off the bat means a lot of hooks and spins, which means bad fielding.

So, shall we just call the WHOLE strike zone? LOL Nobody is going to do that, except in Little League.

In my mind, a bit of play in the strike zone is very different than phantom plays. There is no way for the offense to play against phantom plays, and these phantom plays are always "given" when the defense seems to have enough time to do them right.

With strike zone difference, it is a matter of the offense being able to work with/against it. A pitch 3" outside is VERY hittable for power. The low crap in the dirt is virtually un-hittable unless the batter gets VERY lucky.

So, while I will require a catcher to present a good looking strike to get a call, I will not give the phantom tag and neighborhood play. I think they are bad for learning baseball.

More rubbish

So in other words, you will call it exactly like you think it should be unless you feel differently about how it should be. Good Luck Mr. Perfect, well maybe not always perfect or at least perfect when you think you should be perfect, I think.

Bottom line, if it works for you go with. The neighborhood play was accepted and expected in the leagues I worked.

[njdevs00cup]

Originally Posted by jicecone

NJ ,you have to understand, if you have been asked to officiate Am Legion ball then you should have had enough experience to know that info, been better trained by your association or had that self determinations to be cracking the books for that type of info. Standing during warmups and watching and asking that question shows us that you are indeed a newbie.

Good Luck

All of us are newbies at one point. I have plenty of experience umpiring varsity games. I am asking the question to see how umpires who regularly officiate Legion ball interpret the rules (different than FED). How could I gain the experience if I never step on the field? I'm not going to find the answer to my question in a rule book!