Advice needed on "Hands part of the bat" myth

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Anyway, how do some of you other umpires handle coaches who insist on this, and some of you more knowledgeable coaches hand umpires who still believe this?

It depends.
Are you trying to explain this to a coach during a game or over a cold one?

If it's during a game there really should be no trying to explain.
"Coach the ball hit the batter, it was not a strike, he gets first."
We're not out there to give rule seminars during the game.
However, since it is a rules interp issue the coach has the right to question us on this so if he insists I'll say something like "Coach, I understand what you're saying and I can tell you that this is an often misunderstood rule, the hands are part of the batter not the bat."
After this I'm not allowing anymore insisting.

The coach is not using rule book references and neither am I. I'm not going to go on the defensive and try to prove my position. My position is the default position, the coach would have to prove his position with rule book references (which in this case he obviously cannot) not vice versa.


If it's over a cold one I still doubt if I would spoon feed him rules. Challenge him to find a rule that proves his assertion, maybe that will get him to open the book.
Afterall, he's still just a coach and your interp is the only one that matters. Let him attempt to change your mind

[Rich Ives]

And if you're a coach who knows the rule and dealing with an inexperienced umpire that doesn't - protest.

[Dave Reed]

Does this help? From the FED Casebook:

7.3.4 SITUATION B: B1 is at bat with a three-ball, two-strike count. He swings at the next pitch and the ball hits his right fist and, without contacting the bat, goes into foul territory. F2 retrieves the ball and throws to F3 who is covering first base and tags B1 with the ball. RULING: As soon as the ball hit the batter it became dead. B1 is declared out. To have the play ruled a foul ball, the ball would have to have hit the bat of B1 before it touched his hand.

[505 ump]

Like Rich pointed out. No use arguing, just protest his ruling. An umpire that losses a couple of protests will learn the rules sooner or later.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

Does this help? From the FED Casebook:

7.3.4 SITUATION B: B1 is at bat with a three-ball, two-strike count. He swings at the next pitch and the ball hits his right fist and, without contacting the bat, goes into foul territory. F2 retrieves the ball and throws to F3 who is covering first base and tags B1 with the ball. RULING: As soon as the ball hit the batter it became dead. B1 is declared out. To have the play ruled a foul ball, the ball would have to have hit the bat of B1 before it touched his hand.

Probably not. In the situation the ball rolled foul, and an inexperienced umpire would just call it a foul since, "the hands are part of the bat".

[TussAgee11]

Ask the Coach if the player drops his hands on the ground when he runs to first base

Make sure there are no Jim Abbott's on the field before doing so.

[Rich Ives]

For FED try using 2-40-a

Key words " . . contact with any part of the person or his clothing . . this includes:
a. a pitched ball touching a batter, "


The LL case book "The Right Call" clearly states that the hands are not part of the bat.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

For FED try using 2-40-a

Key words " . . contact with any part of the person or his clothing . . this includes:
a. a pitched ball touching a batter, "


The LL case book "The Right Call" clearly states that the hands are not part of the bat.

That might help. Thanks!

[TwoBits]

Bdtd: I keep an expanded copy of the rules myth document with me. If you search my name, I'm sure you'll find one of my posts about it. I post it near the concession stands in hope that somebody might actually educate themselves in the rules.

Rich: Unfortunately that wouldn't work in my state (Missouri) since no protests are allowed. A rules misinterpretation is supposed to be taken care of on the field by the coach pulling out the rule book and showing where the official is incorrect. It very difficult to show a rule that doesn't exist.

I've tried the "I've never seen a bat with hands attached" approach as an umpire. It never seems to work.

I may try to pull out the FED softball book and use it. It clearly says that the hands are not part of the bat. An inexperienced coach/umpire really doesn't understand that baseball and softball are different games and I may be able to use that.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Bdtd: Rich: Unfortunately that wouldn't work in my state (Missouri) since no protests are allowed. A rules misinterpretation is supposed to be taken care of on the field by the coach pulling out the rule book and showing where the official is incorrect. It very difficult to show a rule that doesn't exist.

Heh, heh! I guess I would never be able to umpire in Missouri, because if a coach pulls out a rule book on me, he's done!

This is probably one of the stupidest things I have ever heard of - making a coach pull a rule book out on an umpire!

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Heh, heh! I guess I would never be able to umpire in Missouri, because if a coach pulls out a rule book on me, he's done!

This is probably one of the stupidest things I have ever heard of - making a coach pull a rule book out on an umpire!

That's not exactly how it works. If a coach feels we made a mistake in the application of the rules, he requests we talk it between the umpires. If we decide in a way he still thinks is incorrect, he states he's protesting the call. The coach then has 10 minutes to use materials (see #3 below) to find our mistake. If the mistake is found, we fix it. If not, the decision stands.

Originally Posted by MSHSAA Baseball Manual

G. PROTEST PROCEDURE (MSHSAA Board Policy): The Board of Directors
adopted the following Policy, in March, 1997, to address protests.
The Board acknowledges that mistakes are made by umpires in judgment
and even sometimes in misapplication of game rules. However, the
decisions rendered by umpires at the contest site are to be final and any
further process other than the one outlined below would not truly serve a
useful purpose in the overall scope of high school athletics.
1. Within the procedures established within each individual sport rule
code, the head coach must request a review of an umpire's application
of a rule through appropriate channels.
2. If, after the review is complete, the coach still believes there has been
a misapplication of a rule by an umpire(s), the coach shall then file a
formal verbal protest with the game umpires who will then notify the
opposing coach immediately of the protest. A coach shall not protest
a decision of judgment.
3. Following this notification of protest, the head coach shall be allowed
approximately ten minutes to use his/her National Federation Rules
Book, National Federation Case Book, MSHSAA Rules Meeting Announcements
and/or MSHSAA Sport Manual to locate and show the
game umpire(s) the appropriate rule reference which clarifies a misapplication
of the game rule. If the head coach does not have personal
copies of the above mentioned materials at the game site or the
specific rule reference(s) or case book play(s) cannot be located
within the maximum allowable ten minutes, the protest shall automatically
be disallowed and the game shall continue from the point of interruption.
If a rule reference(s) or case book play(s) is found that
indicates a misapplication of a rule has occurred, the umpire’s decision
shall be corrected at that time before any further action occurs,
and the game shall be resumed from the point of interruption after the
correction as provided in the contest rules. When appropriate, the
game umpires may assist the head coach in locating appropriate rule
and case book references.
4. All protests shall be resolved at the site before any further game action
occurs.
5. Protests that are not filed in a timely manner by that sport rules code
shall be automatically disallowed.
6. The MSHSAA Board of Directors and/or Staff shall not review game
protests.
NOTE: Protests concerning matters of an official's judgment shall
NOT be considered.