Signals from the coach to the pitcher

[ozzy6900]

Geez Rufus, I couldn't care less where your pitcher is getting his signals from! Just as long as he isn't Quick Pitching, I am not doing anything. If the opposing coach comes to me, I am going to tell him to "get a life" and go back to the dugout! Coaches who worry about this crap are usually usless as coaches and umpires who try to enforce anything other than a Quick Pitch should find a life also!

[Rufus]

Tuss - thank you for the thoughtful advice and I will take it into consideration, if not for this season (since we're almost done here in GA) then definitely for all stars and future seasons.

Your comment about getting clocked by pitches and getting cranky reminds me or our game this week. The PU clocked by a swung bat (on the thigh - no padding there) and then in the hand by a fastball that ticked over the catcher's mit. He had to leave the game after that one (His comment as he was doubled over was "Geez catch, you gotta get those" - and yes he was kidding). I referee basketball and would like to do baseball once the kids are safely out of any area I might officiate in, but stuff like that gives me pause. Don't have to worry about that stuff in basketball!

Ozzy - you sound like a very pratical official. Any time you want to umpire one of our games you are welcome to do so! I only wish I had your number handy so I could have given it to the PU in our game - it would have been a short, and to the point, conversation I'm sure!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rufus

His comment as he was doubled over was "Geez catch, you gotta get those" - and yes he was kidding.

No, I don't think he was.

[RPatrino]

Rufus, you mention, "He had to leave the game after that one". Did he really leave the game after getting hit? Most of us get hit with varying frequency during the season, and I don't recall ever leaving a game.

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

The rule is 6-1-1, but the penalty is set forth on the next page, at the end of 6-1-3.

Let me see if I follow it then:

The penalty says "The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded ... If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk."

The definition of an illegal pitch is "... an illegal act committed by the pitcher ..."

So the logic is: a pitcher taking the signs off the rubber is an illegal act, thus turning it into an illegal pitch (thanks to that vague definition above), thus making it a balk call.

Do I have that right? (Not trying to be sarcastic, I'm really trying to follow the logic, so I know what I'm debating.)

Having said all that, I don't agree one damn bit with it. I have multiple arguments against it:

1. It's just over-officiating. (That's the easy one, but depending on Official NFHS Dictate, that might not fly.)

2. The sentence right after the one about taking signals says "The pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the pitchers's plate." So to me, if he's taking the signs off the rubber, he can't possibly be in violation of pitching regulations, so you can't balk him.

3. The penalty writeup is too vague, and doesn't seem to apply to that specific situation in 6-1-1. To me, anyway. And there's no other applicable penalty, so I wouldn't call anything.

From what I tried to find in the "Search" feature here a few weeks ago, I seemed to find postings that were mostly along the lines of "it's a 'don't do that' situation," and "I'm not balking that" more than any other response. Is there some official casebook notation, or newletter, or other NFHS directive that says "yes it is" or "no don't call that"?

Here's what happened to me. AAU U12 game, using FED rules. R3, XX out. Defensive coach - not HC, but one of the several in the dugout - hollers out about that. I tell him, "he's fine coach,"

"No, he's not!" (and more - I've already stopped listening.)

"He's fine. I'm not getting him."

And I turn to get ready for the next pitch. My mistake - and I admit it freely - was to not call time at this point and tell the kid "look, the rules do say you need to be on the rubber for the signs, so do us both a favor and do that, so he'll shut up." But I didn't, and we were getting ready for the next pitch.

So my partner (PU) immediately balks the kid next pitch. The coach "gets one over," and my partner shoves it in my ear, especially coming right after the exchange between me and the coach.

I wasn't sure that's what he got him for, so I asked an inning or two later. He said that's what it was for, and when I disagreed, he said it was a FED rule, and went through the logic of a runner not knowing when he can take a lead, and the pitcher being able to hold him close. My rebuttal to him was that although the rulebook says he can't do it, there's no penalty or action to take. He apparently felt the penalty after 6-1-3 applied.

But F1 wasn't trying to gain anything against the runner or batter. If anything, the kid was taking even longer than normal, not quick pitching. He'd take the sign, step back to the rubber, and still go through the prelim-stretch-set-pitch routine. So there was no advantage, so no reason to make a deal out of it. And this balked a run in, on top of it all.

So that's why I asked about the penalty in FED, because I didn't find anything to tell me I/we should balk the kid. And as I said, I don't feel like this penalty paragraph applies. Just my opinion.

[mbyron]

Why is the defensive coach complaining about a potential balk on his own pitcher?

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Rufus, you mention, "He had to leave the game after that one". Did he really leave the game after getting hit? Most of us get hit with varying frequency during the season, and I don't recall ever leaving a game.

Yes, he left the game. I think part of it was there was another official who had just finished up a game on another field and was available to take over as PU (i.e., had the gear on) and that we were late in the game and down by 9 runs. I've had this official before and he's very experienced so I don't think he would have left unless (1) he was really hurt and (2) he didn't have a ready/capable replacement. It was very diconcerting to see him take the hit that hard because, as you say, I've seen take a couple off the coconut this year and not be phased by it. That's why nobody thought it odd that he went out (i.e., it must have been really bad).

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by HokieUmp

Let me see if I follow it then:

The penalty says "The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded ... If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk."

The definition of an illegal pitch is "... an illegal act committed by the pitcher ..."

So the logic is: a pitcher taking the signs off the rubber is an illegal act, thus turning it into an illegal pitch (thanks to that vague definition above), thus making it a balk call.

Do I have that right? (Not trying to be sarcastic, I'm really trying to follow the logic, so I know what I'm debating.)

Under a strict reading of the FED rules, and according to an old test question, yes, you have this right.

If the pitcher is "acting like he's on the rubber" (by bending over, one had at the side, looking in to the catcher, ...), then he should be on the rubber.

[DG]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I would not have called a balk in your situation. For one thing, the rule is poorly written: by the letter of the rule, it's a balk when F2 gives the infield signs for the R1/R3 situation and F1 is not in contact.

Say what?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I have listed below a number of threads in this Forum (and one that appeared in the NFHS Baseball Forum) that are about the same situation we are discussing in this thread. Threads 1 and 1a are the important ones. In Thread 1 please pay close attention to Posts 1 and 25 and in Thread 1a pay close attention to Jim Thompson's post of May 21, 2007, at 11:06pm.


1) Pitcher taking signals.

1a) http://www.nfhs.org/cgi-bin/ultimate...;f=10;t=001034

2) Taking signs from the rubber

3) Signals off of rubber

4) Taking signs off the Rubber

5) Signs of Rubber

6) Would you have called a balk?


MTD, Sr.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Rufus, you hit the nail on the head, particularly with very young pitchers. Coaches tend to 'over complicate' things at this level ( sometimes I think HS Varsity coaches do too).

Keep things super simple. Limit the number of different pitches you throw, learn to throw your fastball for consistant strikes in different places (low, high, outside, inside). Use a 2 seamer and a 4 seamer. Learn to throw a change-up before you try a curve. Try to learn a cut fastball or slider. Don't walk anyone, ever.

I was working a game earlier this week where the home team was severely overmatched by the visiting F1. They couldn't touch his fastball. So what did F1 do when he got ahead in the count? Throw a curveball, which the home team jumped all over.

I wanted to go over to the coach and tell him he was an idiot, but I didn't. Why would you ever stick down anything but number 1 if the other team proved they couldn't touch it no matter how many times the pitcher threw it?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by HokieUmp

So my partner (PU) immediately balks the kid next pitch. The coach "gets one over," and my partner shoves it in my ear, especially coming right after the exchange between me and the coach.

Lovely. Let me tell you: As your partner witnessing this exchange, the pitcher would have to drop the ball or stop his motion mid-delivery for me to call a balk here. I'm surprised the other coach didn't get run for accusing the plate guy of letting the other coach make his calls.

How did the bus feel when your partner ran it over you?

[SAump]

It is also a balk if a runner or runners are on base and the pitcher, while he is not touching the pitcher's plate, makes any movement naturally associated with his pitch, or places his feet on or astride the pitcher's plate, or ...

I agree with those who state that it is not allowed and clearly defined to be a balk by rule. I can't figure out why "or places his feet on" or astride "the pitcher's plate" would be prohibited by rule. The rule is poorly written, however, "it is also a balk rule." Not only for a dangerous quick pitch to an unprepared hitter, but for an unfair advantage gained against a baserunner waiting to take his "fair" lead or trying to steal a base on the next pitch. Sorry coach, the pitcher can't straddle the pitcher's plate to delay the runner's early attempt to establish his position on the basepath.

I did not post anything about a pitcher taking signs. I simply posted that a pitcher may not straddle the rubber. If a pitcher is taking his signs while straddling the rubber; that's a balk. Step on or step off, but do not straddle. I haven't figured out how to step off legally without straddling the rubber first, so there must be some kind of timing involved. It also makes it uncomfortable for those who prefer to straddle the rubber just before stepping on, again a long delay must be an issue.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

The rule is 6-1-1, but the penalty is set forth on the next page, at the end of 6-1-3.

Does the 2008 edition still quote the umpire signals "dead ball" instead of time?

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by SAump

I agree with those who state that it is not allowed and clearly defined to be a balk by rule. I can't figure out why "or places his feet on" or astride "the pitcher's plate" would be prohibited by rule. The rule is poorly written, however, "it is also a balk rule." Not only for a dangerous quick pitch to an unprepared hitter, but for an unfair advantage gained against a baserunner waiting to take his "fair" lead or trying to steal a base on the next pitch. Sorry coach, the pitcher can't straddle the pitcher's plate to delay the runner's early attempt to establish his position on the basepath.

Read 6-2-5 to the end. Straddling the rubber is a balk WITHOUT HAVING THE BALL. This rule is often violated during a hidden ball trick attempt. Nothing wrong with straddling the rubber while holding the ball.