Signals from the coach to the pitcher

[Rufus]

We're an 11U rec team playing under USSSA and are 8 games into a 10 game season. A couple of our pitchers are capable of throwing different pitches (4- and 2-seam fastballs, change ups) as well as pick-offs. For these couple I call the pitches from the dugout. For the first time last night the PU informed me that I wasn't allowed to do that and that I had to signal to the catcher who would, in turn, signal to the pitcher.

I found the following reference in the USSSA rulebook in 8.08.A

Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while standing on the rubber.

The rule then goes into great detail about the windup and set positions, and how a balk can be called, but never addresses what happens if the pitcher receives signs from someone other than the catcher. A couple of questions:

• Is there a penalty to doing this? The PU said he would have to do "something" if the opposing coach makes a stink and I was sufficiently chastened that I didn't think to ask what "something" was.
• Can the pitcher stay off the rubber, receive signs from me, reingage the rubber, then pitch (as long as he doesn't try to "quick pitch")?
• While I know I have to adhere to the rule, and the origin doesn't make much difference in the grand scheme of things, can anyone tell me why this rule is in effect? Is it the same in FED and NCAA?

I know my catchers should be able to do something like this but, to be honest, I'm not sure the catchers I have would be able to handle it (though I may be underestimating them).

Thanks.

[mbyron]

This is an OBR rule, and is intended to prevent a quick pitch: the scenario to be prevented is one where the pitcher can hold a runner on base by straddling the rubber, take his sign, then step onto the plate and pitch before the runner can get any significant lead.

It is not the purpose of the rule to prevent anyone else from giving signs to the pitcher. So, properly interpreted, the rule would read, "If he takes a sign from the catcher, the pitcher shall do so while standing on the rubber."

As an umpire, I do not get involved in semeiotics, so I will not be looking into dugouts and watching every defensive player on the field to see whether they might be doing something that could be considered a "sign." I don't care whether the opponent complains: if they say that you're relaying signs from the dugout I'll say that's not illegal, and besides it doesn't look like signs to me.

To answer your questions:
1. OBR (and presumably USSSA) provides no penalty for taking signs from F2 off the rubber; it's a "don't do that." A quick pitch is an illegal pitch, of course.
2. Yes.
3. See above. FED and NCAA have the same rule, though the penalty is different (ball/balk in FED, ball in NCAA).

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by mbyron

3. See above. FED and NCAA have the same rule, though the penalty is different (ball/balk in FED, ball in NCAA).

mb,

Can you give me the FED reference for that? I had a partner call a balk in an AAU game using FED rules, because F1 was off the rubber taking his sign. I spoke to him later in the game, to verify that's what he called it for. I disagreed at the time, but the moment had passed, anyway.

I tried looking it up in the rulebook that day, but all I found was the part that said what the pitcher was supposed to do - take his signs on the rubber - and no part that said Penalty: XXXX. I thought I looked carefully, but I guess I didn't.

Thanks!

[dash_riprock]

The FED penalty for the "quick pitch/taking signs" (defined in ART 1) is on p. 42 "PENALTY (ART. 1, 2, 3):"

I agree with mb about the intent being to prevent the quick pitch. The only signals I care about are between me and my partner.

[JJ]

This is one of those "mountain/mole hill" things. Because it's hard to discern if a pitcher is indeed taking signs "off the rubber", the only thing the umpire should be concerned about is if the pitcher is quick-pitching. I've seen pitchers appear to be taking signs from a catcher when in fact he isn't taking signs at all, or is taking them from a bench coach. As long as he isn't quick-pitching, IMHO it's much ado about nothing. Maybe that's why OBR doesn't list a penalty..

JJ

[RPatrino]

Couple of things, 1) how complicated are your signals that you can't trust the catcher to accurately relay them to the pitcher. Solve this problem, make your signs simple, flash them to the catcher and have him relay them to the pitcher. You can also have your pitcher "peek" at you while you are giving the signs yet still have him get them 'officially' from the catcher. 2) If you are an umpire that worries about this infraction, GET A LIFE, and 3) what is semeiotics, and do I need a prescription for them?

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Couple of things, 1) how complicated are your signals that you can't trust the catcher to accurately relay them to the pitcher. Solve this problem, make your signs simple, flash them to the catcher and have him relay them to the pitcher. You can also have your pitcher "peek" at you while you are giving the signs yet still have him get them 'officially' from the catcher.

Trust me, not that complicated (I'm not smart enough to come up with something too complex!). The thing I've found with 11U is that they are good at taking small amounts of information in and processing it. Only as we get to the end of the season are they able to start stringing things together ("Oh, the warm up we do with three shuffles then a run is related to how we lead off and steal? Who knew?")

My primary catcher is unreliable with the basics of catching so I don't trust him to accurately relay what I'm calling either. I could work on it but, like I said, I didn't know it was a problem until yesterday. The season is almost over and my desire to add something new to the mix is limited.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by HokieUmp

mb,

Can you give me the FED reference for that? I had a partner call a balk in an AAU game using FED rules, because F1 was off the rubber taking his sign. I spoke to him later in the game, to verify that's what he called it for. I disagreed at the time, but the moment had passed, anyway.

I tried looking it up in the rulebook that day, but all I found was the part that said what the pitcher was supposed to do - take his signs on the rubber - and no part that said Penalty: XXXX. I thought I looked carefully, but I guess I didn't.

Thanks!

See 6-1-1 (presumably this is on p. 42 of dash's rule book ).

I would not have called a balk in your situation. For one thing, the rule is poorly written: by the letter of the rule, it's a balk when F2 gives the infield signs for the R1/R3 situation and F1 is not in contact.

Given the poor quality of the letter of the rule, we have to rely on its spirit, which is to prevent a quick pitch (which is always a balk with runners on, in any rule code).

As I say, I don't know who's signaling what to whom, and I don't want to know. As written, the FED rule seems unenforceable. But I do know a quick pitch when I see one (and I know how to deal with that).

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

See 6-1-1 (presumably this is on p. 42 of dash's rule book ).

The rule is 6-1-1, but the penalty is set forth on the next page, at the end of 6-1-3.

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

The rule is 6-1-1, but the penalty is set forth on the next page, at the end of 6-1-3.

Let me see if I follow it then:

The penalty says "The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded ... If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk."

The definition of an illegal pitch is "... an illegal act committed by the pitcher ..."

So the logic is: a pitcher taking the signs off the rubber is an illegal act, thus turning it into an illegal pitch (thanks to that vague definition above), thus making it a balk call.

Do I have that right? (Not trying to be sarcastic, I'm really trying to follow the logic, so I know what I'm debating.)

Having said all that, I don't agree one damn bit with it. I have multiple arguments against it:

1. It's just over-officiating. (That's the easy one, but depending on Official NFHS Dictate, that might not fly.)

2. The sentence right after the one about taking signals says "The pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the pitchers's plate." So to me, if he's taking the signs off the rubber, he can't possibly be in violation of pitching regulations, so you can't balk him.

3. The penalty writeup is too vague, and doesn't seem to apply to that specific situation in 6-1-1. To me, anyway. And there's no other applicable penalty, so I wouldn't call anything.

From what I tried to find in the "Search" feature here a few weeks ago, I seemed to find postings that were mostly along the lines of "it's a 'don't do that' situation," and "I'm not balking that" more than any other response. Is there some official casebook notation, or newletter, or other NFHS directive that says "yes it is" or "no don't call that"?

Here's what happened to me. AAU U12 game, using FED rules. R3, XX out. Defensive coach - not HC, but one of the several in the dugout - hollers out about that. I tell him, "he's fine coach,"

"No, he's not!" (and more - I've already stopped listening.)

"He's fine. I'm not getting him."

And I turn to get ready for the next pitch. My mistake - and I admit it freely - was to not call time at this point and tell the kid "look, the rules do say you need to be on the rubber for the signs, so do us both a favor and do that, so he'll shut up." But I didn't, and we were getting ready for the next pitch.

So my partner (PU) immediately balks the kid next pitch. The coach "gets one over," and my partner shoves it in my ear, especially coming right after the exchange between me and the coach.

I wasn't sure that's what he got him for, so I asked an inning or two later. He said that's what it was for, and when I disagreed, he said it was a FED rule, and went through the logic of a runner not knowing when he can take a lead, and the pitcher being able to hold him close. My rebuttal to him was that although the rulebook says he can't do it, there's no penalty or action to take. He apparently felt the penalty after 6-1-3 applied.

But F1 wasn't trying to gain anything against the runner or batter. If anything, the kid was taking even longer than normal, not quick pitching. He'd take the sign, step back to the rubber, and still go through the prelim-stretch-set-pitch routine. So there was no advantage, so no reason to make a deal out of it. And this balked a run in, on top of it all.

So that's why I asked about the penalty in FED, because I didn't find anything to tell me I/we should balk the kid. And as I said, I don't feel like this penalty paragraph applies. Just my opinion.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

The rule is 6-1-1, but the penalty is set forth on the next page, at the end of 6-1-3.

Does the 2008 edition still quote the umpire signals "dead ball" instead of time?

[DG]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I would not have called a balk in your situation. For one thing, the rule is poorly written: by the letter of the rule, it's a balk when F2 gives the infield signs for the R1/R3 situation and F1 is not in contact.

Say what?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I have listed below a number of threads in this Forum (and one that appeared in the NFHS Baseball Forum) that are about the same situation we are discussing in this thread. Threads 1 and 1a are the important ones. In Thread 1 please pay close attention to Posts 1 and 25 and in Thread 1a pay close attention to Jim Thompson's post of May 21, 2007, at 11:06pm.


1) Pitcher taking signals.

1a) http://www.nfhs.org/cgi-bin/ultimate...;f=10;t=001034

2) Taking signs from the rubber

3) Signals off of rubber

4) Taking signs off the Rubber

5) Signs of Rubber

6) Would you have called a balk?


MTD, Sr.

[ozzy6900]

Geez Rufus, I couldn't care less where your pitcher is getting his signals from! Just as long as he isn't Quick Pitching, I am not doing anything. If the opposing coach comes to me, I am going to tell him to "get a life" and go back to the dugout! Coaches who worry about this crap are usually usless as coaches and umpires who try to enforce anything other than a Quick Pitch should find a life also!

[Rufus]

Tuss - thank you for the thoughtful advice and I will take it into consideration, if not for this season (since we're almost done here in GA) then definitely for all stars and future seasons.

Your comment about getting clocked by pitches and getting cranky reminds me or our game this week. The PU clocked by a swung bat (on the thigh - no padding there) and then in the hand by a fastball that ticked over the catcher's mit. He had to leave the game after that one (His comment as he was doubled over was "Geez catch, you gotta get those" - and yes he was kidding). I referee basketball and would like to do baseball once the kids are safely out of any area I might officiate in, but stuff like that gives me pause. Don't have to worry about that stuff in basketball!

Ozzy - you sound like a very pratical official. Any time you want to umpire one of our games you are welcome to do so! I only wish I had your number handy so I could have given it to the PU in our game - it would have been a short, and to the point, conversation I'm sure!