Assignor Nightmares

[PeteBooth]

[

QUOTE=David B]

As far as rules, the BU has no choice but to call the runner out and continue.

thanks
David

[/QUOTE]

David there is a rule (I am at work and don't have the rule number) that prohibits the use of replay equipment.

In this instance (The PA announcing that the BR missed first base) is IMO equivalent to using Replay equipment hence the appeal should not be allowed because it's apprent from the OP that the Defense was NOT going to appeal. F1 was getting ready to pitch but then he heard the PA announcer and who at this point wouldn't appeal.

COump could be right in that the other 3 EJ's came from the defense but depending upon how the situation was handled there could have been EJ's from both sides.

Hopefully Peter will tell us exactly who got EJ'd in addition to the PA announcer.

Pete Booth

[David B]

But this is FED and the replay is limited to the coaches, assistants, and bench personell. Would the PA announcer be considered part of the team?

I would say no. It would be the same as if it were a parent in the stands with a bullhorn etc,.

Unsportsmanlike, surely, but not necessarily covered by the rules.

As Peter said, wouldn't you hate to have been given that game?

thanks
David

Mde

[bossman72]

Well, really, what would be the difference between the PA announcer saying he missed it, and a loud obnoxious dad yelling from the stands "Appeal First!!" One just has a louder voice. haha.

It sucks, but I think we don't have a choice but to allow the appeal. The PA announcer is then gone forever.

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Well, really, what would be the difference between the PA announcer saying he missed it, and a loud obnoxious dad yelling from the stands "Appeal First!!" One just has a louder voice. haha.

It sucks, but I think we don't have a choice but to allow the appeal. The PA announcer is then gone forever.

If dad and the PA anouncer are equal, would you then eject dad for yelling?
I didn't think so, so at some level there is a difference worth ejecting over.

IMO, if you can eject PA for making the statement then you have grounds for not allowing the appeal

[socalblue1]

I suspect the announcer thought he was broadcasting TV only and not PA at that point (But who can be sure?).

CSFP result is no appeal permitted, R2 let's play. If the announcer was PA only he would be ejected for violating the no replay rule as he would be considered team staff.

[PeteBooth]

[

QUOTE=David B]But this is FED and the replay is limited to the coaches, assistants, and bench personell. Would the PA announcer be considered part of the team?

I would say no. It would be the same as if it were a parent in the stands with a bullhorn etc,.

David from the OP

the home team announcer says over the PA system: "The telecast clearly shows that BR missed 1st base so you might want to appeal.

IMO, this is not equivalent to a Mom / Dad etc. yelling from the stands

The announcer basically said "according to replay (the telecast) B1 missed first base."

That IMO is WAY different then a parent saying Appeal First Appeal First.

I agree the umpires were in a pickle.

Peter has yet to post the outcome but my point was that the umpires could have gotten together and said that because of REPLAY the defense gained an unfair advantage not intended by the rules.

Pete Booth

[ozzy6900]

Ahhh, HHH! Nice to see you back, Pete.

I've read a lot of interesting resolutions to your "nightmare" but in reality, there are only two things that need to be done in a case like this.

1. The umpires immediatly call TIME and eject the PA announcer. This is covered in all three rule sets and needs to be done immediatly.
2. If the defense attempts to appeal the missed base, this must be honered.

Now hold on all of you.....! Would you deny an appeal if a parent hollered about the missed base and the defense listened? Of course not! You will have a problem with the offensive coach but you will have to deal with that. It is a valid appeal so you must act on it. Of course, you might get a balk out it because you killed the ball to eject the PA announcer so that may be a plus.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Ahhh, HHH! Nice to see you back, Pete.

I've read a lot of interesting resolutions to your "nightmare" but in reality, there are only two things that need to be done in a case like this.

1. The umpires immediatly call TIME and eject the PA announcer. This is covered in all three rule sets and needs to be done immediatly.
2. If the defense attempts to appeal the missed base, this must be honered.

Now hold on all of you.....! Would you deny an appeal if a parent hollered about the missed base and the defense listened? Of course not! You will have a problem with the offensive coach but you will have to deal with that. It is a valid appeal so you must act on it. Of course, you might get a balk out it because you killed the ball to eject the PA announcer so that may be a plus.

Would you not consider that the info was gained illegally by a "team attendant"?


Interesting scenario though.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Would you not consider that the info was gained illegally by a "team attendant"?


Interesting scenario though.

No Rich, because I do not know what is in the minds of the defense. What if they were already prepared to make the appeal? I would not know that. So I deal with the problem (get rid of the PA announcer), then deal with the appeal, then deal with the offensive coach. Now if you (or anyone else) can show me something from a casebook or the MLBUM to negate that appeal, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But to just say "it is wrong" is incorrect.

Let me add that this would have been a great question to post to Bob Drake - too bad that site was closed and he was "chased" off this site.

[johnnyg08]

Rob Drake might have been chased out, but Bob might still be here! :-)

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Rob Drake might have been chased out, but Bob might still be here! :-)

Talk about a Freudian slip!

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

No Rich, because I do not know what is in the minds of the defense. What if they were already prepared to make the appeal? I would not know that. So I deal with the problem (get rid of the PA announcer), then deal with the appeal, then deal with the offensive coach. Now if you (or anyone else) can show me something from a casebook or the MLBUM to negate that appeal, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But to just say "it is wrong" is incorrect.

Let me add that this would have been a great question to post to Bob Drake - too bad that site was closed and he was "chased" off this site.

This may just be one of the rare occasions where the rules and the best interest of the game just don't mesh.

So when it comes right down to it, what's more important
following the letter of the law or maintaining the best interest of the game?

Depending on how you answer this question may determine how you rule on this play.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by CO ump

So when it comes right down to it, what's more important following the letter of the law or maintaining the best interest of the game?

This is not a useful question. The rules do not address this situation or any like it, so following "the letter of the law" is not an option.

Remember that the problems all arose because the OFFENSE made a mistake, namely BR missing 1B.

The PA announcer made the next mistake, namely announcing the offense's mistake. Eject the PA announcer to deal with his mistake.

Now the defense wants to appeal the missed base. As an umpire, I have no definite knowledge whether they would have appealed without the information from the PA announcer. Since the offense made the initial mistake, I must give the benefit of the doubt to the defense and grant the appeal.

Rich, although the the PA announcer illegally announced the missed base, it does not follow that this was how the defense came to know about the missed base: they might first have seen it. Again, the benefit of the doubt must go to the defense here.

If, as in the actual case, the O-coach comes out and says to grant the appeal, that just means that he won't be ejected. On this play, anyway...

[PeteBooth]

Ozzy from the OP

he notices that the BR missed 1st base, but no one else seems to have noticed. The BU nonchalantly takes position B. The pitcher gets ready to pitch and the home team announcer says over the PA system: "The telecast clearly shows that BR missed 1st base so you might want to appeal.

I have underlined the relevant passage from the OP

The defense was not even thinking about appealing otherwise instead of F1 getting ready to pitch F3 would be saying "throw me the ball the runner missed the bag"

At least the way I am reading it it is APPARENT that absent the announcement from the PA announcer F1 would have simply pitched the ball to B1.

You say "show me the rule"

There is a rule against the use of REPLAY equipment. The PA announcer said
The telecast clearly shows I interpret that to mean that the PA announcer is saying Replay shows that B1 missed first base so you better appeal.

In summary: The defense was not going to appeal no matter what the DM / players / Crowd said afterwards otherwise they would have done so. They had plenty of time. Heck F1 was getting ready to pitch and as mentioned if the PA announcer had not opened his mouth F1 would have pitched the ball meaning "off bets off" as far as an appeal goes.

Therefore IMO you do have a rule to use for denying the appeal. Also, even if there was no rule, IMO the defense had no intentions of appealing until they heard the PA announcer.

This was indeed a tough day for the men in blue but in reading Peter's response I don't know how the EJ's could have been avoided. R2/F1 jawing at each other is not the umpires fault and the behavior of the DM is also not their fault. The DM was trying to pull a "fast one"

Pete Booth

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Ozzy from the OP



I have underlined the relevant passage from the OP

The defense was not even thinking about appealing otherwise instead of F1 getting ready to pitch F3 would be saying "throw me the ball the runner missed the bag"

At least the way I am reading it it is APPARENT that absent the announcement from the PA announcer F1 would have simply pitched the ball to B1.

You say "show me the rule"

There is a rule against the use of REPLAY equipment. The PA announcer said
The telecast clearly shows I interpret that to mean that the PA announcer is saying Replay shows that B1 missed first base so you better appeal.

In summary: The defense was not going to appeal no matter what the DM / players / Crowd said afterwards otherwise they would have done so. They had plenty of time. Heck F1 was getting ready to pitch and as mentioned if the PA announcer had not opened his mouth F1 would have pitched the ball meaning "off bets off" as far as an appeal goes.

Therefore IMO you do have a rule to use for denying the appeal. Also, even if there was no rule, IMO the defense had no intentions of appealing until they heard the PA announcer.

This was indeed a tough day for the men in blue but in reading Peter's response I don't know how the EJ's could have been avoided. R2/F1 jawing at each other is not the umpires fault and the behavior of the DM is also not their fault. The DM was trying to pull a "fast one"

Pete Booth

Pete, you make a good point about the PA announcer using a replay of some sort. I have no argument there. That part of the equation has been removed by ejecting the PA announcer first. It is very important to make this the second move (the first is to call TIME) as this shows the announcer's input into the game is a complete violation and is dealt with on the spot.

Now you quoted HHH's post where he says that it was apparent that the defense was not going to appeal. It may seem this way but really, how can you be sure? You know that the defensive manager is going to insist that he saw the runner miss the base (he's be a fool if he didn't)! Just as a Judge on the bench would not try to assume what is in someone's head, neither should we as umpires.

Mbyron made a good point in that the offense made the first mistake by failing to touch the base. Granted, we assume that the runner has touched the base (even when we see him miss it) but that is how it has to be. If properly appealed, we reverse our call from safe to an out.

Finally, to go back to the use of replay, I believe that the rule is referring to the defense using the replay. If this were the case, the appeal would not be allowed at all by rule. But it was the PA announcer that used the replay. Not unlike the father who says "Coach, he missed 1st base, I have it on tape". As long as the defense does not view the replay, they haven't violated the rule. All the manager has to say is "Yeah, I heard the guy but I was going to appeal anyway.".

I still say that if the defense puts forth an appeal in this case, we have to honor it.