Batting out of order

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Blue37

Procedural question.

The defense was pointing out B3 as having batted out-of-order. The pitch to B2 legitimized B3's at bat and B4 should be at the plate. B2 is now batting out-of-order. If the defense has said nothing about B2 being out of order, should we "bring B4 to the plate"?

In actual fact, the defense didn't say anything until afterwards, when they and their fans cried like babies. The offense (scorekeeper) called attention to the BOO, and because he waited for that 1 pitch I suspect that he knew the rule.

However, even if it had been the defense appealing B3 batting out of order, at that point the offense knew and I knew that B2 was the wrong batter. The pitch to B2 made B3 the proper batter, and that would mean that B4 should be batting. By rule, we bring the proper batter to the plate, no matter who points out the BOO. The only issue at that point is whether there's an out to be called or runners removed from base, and that depends on when the matter arises.

The conversation went like this (we used player's numbers, but I'm substituting B2, B3, etc. for consistency with the thread):

O-Coach: B3 just batted out of order.
Me: OK, who bats after B3? Him? (pointing to B2 at the plate)
O-Coach: No, B4.
Me: OK, get B4 up to the plate. The count's 1-0.

Then I explained it to the defense's coach.

D-Coach: So who's out?
Me: Nobody's out, coach. You pitched to the next batter, and that made B3 the proper batter. (I didn't add: and his 2-run homer counts.)
D-Coach: Somebody has to be out! They batted out of order!
Me: Coach, by rule, you have until the next pitch to catch the BOO. You pitched to the next batter, so we bring the proper batter to the plate, and he inherits the 1-0 count.

D-Coach left, mumbling...

[tjones1]

I see your point mbyron. But if the defense wants an out, wouldn't they want the batter batting out of order to complete the bat and then appeal?

I agree that if the O-coach comes up that we should correct it. But, if we notice it and correct it ourselves, would we (possibly) be taking an out away from the defense?

I know I'm probably way off the porch, so please kick me back on it.

[UMP25]

Never ever do anything on your own when someone bats out of order! It's up to the defense to appeal it or the offense to realize and (possibly) correct their error.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Never ever do anything on your own when someone bats out of order! It's up to the defense to appeal it or the offense to realize and (possibly) correct their error.

Right. In my situation, the O-coach came to me and told me that there was a problem. At that point, I enforced the rule, given the situation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tjones1

I see your point mbyron. But if the defense wants an out, wouldn't they want the batter batting out of order to complete the bat and then appeal?

Yes.

I agree that if the O-coach comes up that we should correct it. But, if we notice it and correct it ourselves, would we (possibly) be taking an out away from the defense?

Unlike "illegal subs", this infraction can only be "reported" by either team. Even if we (umpires) know, we do nothing. If the fans say something, ignore them. If the official scorekeeper says something, ignore him /her at first and then admonish him / her to stfu (once a team acts or it's too late to act).

[UMP25]

I actually had, during a tournament game several years ago, the official scorekeeper (meaning he wasn't representing a specific team; he was the tourney's scorer) yell loudly to me from the booth that the wrong guy batted. I eventually went over to politely tell him to STFU.

[DG]

As a defensive strategy you always want to the let the BOO batter bat. You have an out one way or another, but what if he hits into a double play? You let that ride and see if the next batter is the one that is supposed to follow the one that just batted. If not let him bat too and you will get a third out after he is done by bringing up that he is not the correct batter.

Last year I was BU in a game where a guy batted out of order and grounded out. Offensive coach came out before the next pitch and told my partner he had batted out of order so my partner calls the correct batter out. Defensive coach comes out and says he will take the out instead. My partner calls me over and after brief discussion we let the out stand and the next batter was the one who followed the guy who just grounded out. Since defensive guy did not bring it up he was willing to take the out. Maybe the better hitter had been skipped, or maybe he was hoping for another out when the batter who followed the incorrect batter was not the correct batter.

[Forest Ump]

DG, was your reasoning for letting the out stand due to the defense not appealling the BOO? The reasoning being that only the defense can appeal. Absent that you have nothing. Is that right?

Before I read that, I thought that once it was brought up either by the defense or offense you would be obligated to make it correct.

[DG]

Originally Posted by Forest Ump

DG, was your reasoning for letting the out stand due to the defense not appealling the BOO? The reasoning being that only the defense can appeal. Absent that you have nothing. Is that right?

Before I read that, I thought that once it was brought up either by the defense or offense you would be obligated to make it correct.

That was our reasoning after discussing with both coaches. The at bat was over, offensive coach came to the plate with his lineup card in hand, when defensive coach came out to see what discussion was about he was advised that we have a BOO and he said "I know, but I'll take the play, I'm not appealing it". That pretty much ended our discussion.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by DG

You have an out one way or another, but what if he hits into a double play? You let that ride and see if the next batter is the one that is supposed to follow the one that just batted. If not let him bat too and you will get a third out after he is done by bringing up that he is not the correct batter.

The double play would stand in Fed, not in OBR (not sure about NCAA). In OBR, you would declare the proper batter out and put the runners back on base. Source: The PUBC Umpire Manual, Pg. 13-15

[DG]

Originally Posted by Welpe

The double play would stand in Fed, not in OBR (not sure about NCAA). In OBR, you would declare the proper batter out and put the runners back on base. Source: The PUBC Umpire Manual, Pg. 13-15

Thanks. I have only done FED ball lately. I will have to remember this when summer leagues start.

Per BRD, NCAA is same as OBR.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by DG

Last year I was BU in a game where a guy batted out of order and grounded out. Offensive coach came out before the next pitch and told my partner he had batted out of order so my partner calls the correct batter out. Defensive coach comes out and says he will take the out instead. My partner calls me over and after brief discussion we let the out stand and the next batter was the one who followed the guy who just grounded out. Since defensive guy did not bring it up he was willing to take the out. Maybe the better hitter had been skipped, or maybe he was hoping for another out when the batter who followed the incorrect batter was not the correct batter.

You what? How can you allow the play to stand when the defense brings up BOO? If the defense brings it up, you've got to make the BOO ruling. There is no option of taking the play or penalty. This isn't a catcher's interference or defaced ball pitch here (OBR option plays).

[UmpJM]

UMP25,

If I'm reading DG's post correctly, it was the Offensive Coach who brought it up, after his improper batter had (unsuccessfully) completed his at bat.

The defensive coach said let it stand. Since he didn't bring it up, I believe the umpire's in DG's sitch ruled correctly in letting the play stand.

JM

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by tjones1

I see your point mbyron. But if the defense wants an out, wouldn't they want the batter batting out of order to complete the bat and then appeal?

It depends.

Suppose there is 2 outs and the number 9 batter was hitting in the number 8
batter's slot.

The Defensive manager might say something before the AB is complete so that the number 8 batter completes the TAB and instead of having the number 1 hitter leadoff the next inning the number 9 hitter would lead off the next inning - Could be a BIG difference.

The answers to these type questions depend upon many factors. Score of game who is at the plate who follows the correct batter etc.

If the clean-up hitter is up then I agree the DM would most likely keep quiet.

Pete Booth

[Jay R]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

It depends.

Suppose there is 2 outs and the number 9 batter was hitting in the number 8
batter's slot.

The Defensive manager might say something before the AB is complete so that the number 8 batter completes the TAB and instead of having the number 1 hitter leadoff the next inning the number 9 hitter would lead off the next inning - Could be a BIG difference.

The answers to these type questions depend upon many factors. Score of game who is at the plate who follows the correct batter etc.

If the clean-up hitter is up then I agree the DM would most likely keep quiet.

Pete Booth

Pete,

If I was managing in that situation, I'd let the #9 hitter complete his at bat and then appeal. This would make the proper batter (#8) out. The #9 batter would lead off next inning.