Is there a Dr. in da house

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

I would have said the same thing. The ATC would then have to take that up with the powers to be.

But, my 2 cents. We are umpires. At the end of the day, whether we are doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc, when we are on the field, WE ARE UMPIRES. WE ARE NOT DOCTORS, ATHLETIC TRAINERS, etc. If you have a Certified Athletic Trainer at the game, you need to let them make the decisions. Who am I to tell an ATC that the player who just got hit should not return to the game? That is not my call. That is his/her call. That is what they get paid for. Unless you see the athlete laying there unconscious and they have to do CPR or mouth to mouth breathing, there is no reason not to let them return. I think the umpire made the wrong call.

An athletic trainer is not an MD or DO. If the player was apparently unconscious, even for an instant, that player doesn't return without a PHYSICIAN'S WRITTEN authorization.

[Hartee14]

I agree with you that an Athletic Trainer is not an MD or DO. But, they do have to work under the direction of an MD or DO. So, trust me, they know what they are doing. Athletic Trainer's have to go through 4 years of college and then pass a National Board test. My point being, as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious, it is a medical professional. In this case, the medical professional is the Athletic Trainer. This is another case of an official thinking they are more important then they really are.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

I agree with you that an Athletic Trainer is not an MD or DO. But, they do have to work under the direction of an MD or DO. So, trust me, they know what they are doing. Athletic Trainer's have to go through 4 years of college and then pass a National Board test. My point being, as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious, it is a medical professional. In this case, the medical professional is the Athletic Trainer. This is another case of an official thinking they are more important then they really are.

You fail to understand. It is a requirement that written authorization from a doctor (from what I've heard some states require this on letterhead) is required to allow a player to return when the player appeared to lose consciousness TO THE OFFICIAL. The medical trainer is irrelevant in this process and will continue to be until the NFHS recognizes that person in the rule, same as they recognize an MD or DO. They won't, because the standard of training is much higher for an MD and DO and there are more stringent licensing requirements.

Now, if the trainer is an MD or DO, then that person can write me up authorization taking responsibility and I'll allow the player to return.

This is another case of an official doing what is expected of him and, like it or not, I am the ultimate authority of whether someone returns to the game. The trainer can go pound sand if he doesn't like it.

Welcome to the board, BTW.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

I agree with you that an Athletic Trainer is not an MD or DO. But, they do have to work under the direction of an MD or DO. So, trust me, they know what they are doing. Athletic Trainer's have to go through 4 years of college and then pass a National Board test. My point being, as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious, it is a medical professional. In this case, the medical professional is the Athletic Trainer. This is another case of an official thinking they are more important then they really are.

No its actually another case of someone spouting off, that has never been involved in a lawsuite.

I hope your insurance coverage is as large as your sympathy for the Trainer.
A good lawyer will make swisscheese out of your argument.

Mr. Umpire, "Are we to understand, that "YOU" as the head official for this athletic contest in question, knowingly allowed a previously seriously injured player return to the game, and was permanently crippled when he was again hit by another pitch, without a docters written approval?

Yes or NO?

I certainly hope you carry a lot of insurance!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

... as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious...

Actually, according to the NFHS baseball rules, it is your job. If there is even the smallest of hints that the player has suffered LOC, he's done for the day until I get the proper written autorization.

[Hartee14]

I do not fail to understand anything. I know the rule. The fact remains I am going to listen to the Athletic Trainer in this situation. I feel the way I feel. In my opinion, no medical professional, including an Athletic Trainer, is going to let an athlete back into a game that should not be playing. You guys do not give the Athletic Trainers enough respect. Most people think they are glorified EMTs. They are not. They are much more then that.

I am in agreement that if the athlete looses unconscious that an MD or DO will have to let the athlete back in the game. What we are arguing about is who makes the decision. I am not putting that burden on me.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

I do not fail to understand anything. I know the rule. The fact remains I am going to listen to the Athletic Trainer in this situation. I feel the way I feel. In my opinion, no medical professional, including an Athletic Trainer, is going to let an athlete back into a game that should not be playing. You guys do not give the Athletic Trainers enough respect. Most people think they are glorified EMTs. They are not. They are much more then that.

I am in agreement that if the athlete looses unconscious that an MD or DO will have to let the athlete back in the game. What we are arguing about is who makes the decision. I am not putting that burden on me.

Troll alert. Do not feed.

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

I do not fail to understand anything. I know the rule. The fact remains I am going to listen to the Athletic Trainer in this situation. I feel the way I feel. In my opinion, no medical professional, including an Athletic Trainer, is going to let an athlete back into a game that should not be playing. You guys do not give the Athletic Trainers enough respect. Most people think they are glorified EMTs. They are not. They are much more then that.
I am in agreement that if the athlete looses unconscious that an MD or DO will have to let the athlete back in the game. What we are arguing about is who makes the decision. I am not putting that burden on me.

Neither an athletic trainer nor an EMT are the equivalent of an MD. BTW, if I'm
involved in a serious traffic accident, I'd rather have an EMT treat me than an athletic trainer, so the comment highlighted in bold makes no sense to me.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

I agree with you that an Athletic Trainer is not an MD or DO. But, they do have to work under the direction of an MD or DO. So, trust me, they know what they are doing. Athletic Trainer's have to go through 4 years of college and then pass a National Board test. My point being, as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious, it is a medical professional. In this case, the medical professional is the Athletic Trainer. This is another case of an official thinking they are more important then they really are.

No, it's just a case of following the rules. If the player was rendered (apparently) unconscious, the rules say the Athletic Trainer's opinion isn't good enough. The umpire isn't making that decision, someone else did. The umpire decides if the player was unconscious. The doctor decides if he returns.

[Hartee14]

Let's agree to disagree on this topic.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

Let's agree to disagree on this topic.

I will agree (with anyone else) that you are wrong.

[Hartee14]

That is the type of comment that does not have to be made. Grow up.

[Hartee14]

But, I do agree with Steve M, if a partner did let a player back into the game with those symptoms, they were wrong. The good thing is, the NFHS and most state associations are starting to allow Athletic Trainers to do more and more.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

But, I do agree with Steve M, if a partner did let a player back into the game with those symptoms, they were wrong. The good thing is, the NFHS and most state associations are starting to allow Athletic Trainers to do more and more.

Man, I think you missed what I was saying - or at least meant to be clear on.
If you & are are doing a game, a player is knocked out, and you let him back into the game with only the OK of an athletic trainer - you will finish that game alone.
And I live in an area where it is very likely there are several docs in the stands - in this county, we have 1 doc for every 300 people. (That also means there are a lot of lawyers around too)

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

But, I do agree with Steve M, if a partner did let a player back into the game with those symptoms, they were wrong. The good thing is, the NFHS and most state associations are starting to allow Athletic Trainers to do more and more.

Ok, but until it's in black and white that an Athletic Trainer can approve the return of a player who has been unconscious you can't allow their return. By doing so, you are asking for a court date.

Just my opinion (and others), but I believe you are wrong by allowing the player to return based on an AT's opinion. As I said, do as you wish, but you are asking to open a big can of worms.