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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 08:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
I agree, Rich. The question wasn't "what is the right ruling", but "how do you responde when someopne asks about a previous game." Since "we" (the OP) weren't there, I just give the rule and try not to make a judgment about what really happened.

For some reason, too many individuals think the umpires in the next game are the proper channel in which to lodge a complaint.
Obviously. I would've simply said, "I wasn't here. Is the kid OK?" and escaped if that didn't change the subject.
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Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 08:46am
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I would have said the same thing. The ATC would then have to take that up with the powers to be.

But, my 2 cents. We are umpires. At the end of the day, whether we are doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc, when we are on the field, WE ARE UMPIRES. WE ARE NOT DOCTORS, ATHLETIC TRAINERS, etc. If you have a Certified Athletic Trainer at the game, you need to let them make the decisions. Who am I to tell an ATC that the player who just got hit should not return to the game? That is not my call. That is his/her call. That is what they get paid for. Unless you see the athlete laying there unconscious and they have to do CPR or mouth to mouth breathing, there is no reason not to let them return. I think the umpire made the wrong call.
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Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 08:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartee14
I would have said the same thing. The ATC would then have to take that up with the powers to be.

But, my 2 cents. We are umpires. At the end of the day, whether we are doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc, when we are on the field, WE ARE UMPIRES. WE ARE NOT DOCTORS, ATHLETIC TRAINERS, etc. If you have a Certified Athletic Trainer at the game, you need to let them make the decisions. Who am I to tell an ATC that the player who just got hit should not return to the game? That is not my call. That is his/her call. That is what they get paid for. Unless you see the athlete laying there unconscious and they have to do CPR or mouth to mouth breathing, there is no reason not to let them return. I think the umpire made the wrong call.
An athletic trainer is not an MD or DO. If the player was apparently unconscious, even for an instant, that player doesn't return without a PHYSICIAN'S WRITTEN authorization.
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Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 09:17am
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I agree with you that an Athletic Trainer is not an MD or DO. But, they do have to work under the direction of an MD or DO. So, trust me, they know what they are doing. Athletic Trainer's have to go through 4 years of college and then pass a National Board test. My point being, as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious, it is a medical professional. In this case, the medical professional is the Athletic Trainer. This is another case of an official thinking they are more important then they really are.
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Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 09:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartee14
I agree with you that an Athletic Trainer is not an MD or DO. But, they do have to work under the direction of an MD or DO. So, trust me, they know what they are doing. Athletic Trainer's have to go through 4 years of college and then pass a National Board test. My point being, as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious, it is a medical professional. In this case, the medical professional is the Athletic Trainer. This is another case of an official thinking they are more important then they really are.
You fail to understand. It is a requirement that written authorization from a doctor (from what I've heard some states require this on letterhead) is required to allow a player to return when the player appeared to lose consciousness TO THE OFFICIAL. The medical trainer is irrelevant in this process and will continue to be until the NFHS recognizes that person in the rule, same as they recognize an MD or DO. They won't, because the standard of training is much higher for an MD and DO and there are more stringent licensing requirements.

Now, if the trainer is an MD or DO, then that person can write me up authorization taking responsibility and I'll allow the player to return.

This is another case of an official doing what is expected of him and, like it or not, I am the ultimate authority of whether someone returns to the game. The trainer can go pound sand if he doesn't like it.

Welcome to the board, BTW.
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Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 09:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartee14
I agree with you that an Athletic Trainer is not an MD or DO. But, they do have to work under the direction of an MD or DO. So, trust me, they know what they are doing. Athletic Trainer's have to go through 4 years of college and then pass a National Board test. My point being, as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious, it is a medical professional. In this case, the medical professional is the Athletic Trainer. This is another case of an official thinking they are more important then they really are.
No its actually another case of someone spouting off, that has never been involved in a lawsuite.

I hope your insurance coverage is as large as your sympathy for the Trainer.
A good lawyer will make swisscheese out of your argument.

Mr. Umpire, "Are we to understand, that "YOU" as the head official for this athletic contest in question, knowingly allowed a previously seriously injured player return to the game, and was permanently crippled when he was again hit by another pitch, without a docters written approval?

Yes or NO?

I certainly hope you carry a lot of insurance!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 11:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartee14
... as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious...
Actually, according to the NFHS baseball rules, it is your job. If there is even the smallest of hints that the player has suffered LOC, he's done for the day until I get the proper written autorization.
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Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 12:48pm
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I do not fail to understand anything. I know the rule. The fact remains I am going to listen to the Athletic Trainer in this situation. I feel the way I feel. In my opinion, no medical professional, including an Athletic Trainer, is going to let an athlete back into a game that should not be playing. You guys do not give the Athletic Trainers enough respect. Most people think they are glorified EMTs. They are not. They are much more then that.

I am in agreement that if the athlete looses unconscious that an MD or DO will have to let the athlete back in the game. What we are arguing about is who makes the decision. I am not putting that burden on me.
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Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 03:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartee14
I do not fail to understand anything. I know the rule. The fact remains I am going to listen to the Athletic Trainer in this situation. I feel the way I feel. In my opinion, no medical professional, including an Athletic Trainer, is going to let an athlete back into a game that should not be playing. You guys do not give the Athletic Trainers enough respect. Most people think they are glorified EMTs. They are not. They are much more then that.

I am in agreement that if the athlete looses unconscious that an MD or DO will have to let the athlete back in the game. What we are arguing about is who makes the decision. I am not putting that burden on me.
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Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 10:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartee14
I do not fail to understand anything. I know the rule. The fact remains I am going to listen to the Athletic Trainer in this situation. I feel the way I feel. In my opinion, no medical professional, including an Athletic Trainer, is going to let an athlete back into a game that should not be playing. You guys do not give the Athletic Trainers enough respect. Most people think they are glorified EMTs. They are not. They are much more then that.
I am in agreement that if the athlete looses unconscious that an MD or DO will have to let the athlete back in the game. What we are arguing about is who makes the decision. I am not putting that burden on me.
Neither an athletic trainer nor an EMT are the equivalent of an MD. BTW, if I'm
involved in a serious traffic accident, I'd rather have an EMT treat me than an athletic trainer, so the comment highlighted in bold makes no sense to me.
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Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 01:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartee14
I agree with you that an Athletic Trainer is not an MD or DO. But, they do have to work under the direction of an MD or DO. So, trust me, they know what they are doing. Athletic Trainer's have to go through 4 years of college and then pass a National Board test. My point being, as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious, it is a medical professional. In this case, the medical professional is the Athletic Trainer. This is another case of an official thinking they are more important then they really are.
No, it's just a case of following the rules. If the player was rendered (apparently) unconscious, the rules say the Athletic Trainer's opinion isn't good enough. The umpire isn't making that decision, someone else did. The umpire decides if the player was unconscious. The doctor decides if he returns.

Last edited by dash_riprock; Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:20pm.
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Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 01:34pm
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Let's agree to disagree on this topic.
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Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 02:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartee14
Let's agree to disagree on this topic.
I will agree (with anyone else) that you are wrong.
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Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 02:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dash_riprock
No, it's just a case of following the rules. If the player was rendered (apparently) unconscious, the rules say the Athletic Trainer's opinion isn't good enough. The umpire isn't making that decision, someone else did. The umpire decides if the player was unconscious. The doctor decides if he returns.
Agreed. AND IF a partner let a player, who had been knocked out, back into the game - without a note from an MD or DO - I do believe that this partner would be finishing the game alone. Trainers are great at what they are qualified to do, but they do not meet the requirements stated in the rules.
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Old Mon Apr 14, 2008, 08:50am
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartee14
I agree with you that an Athletic Trainer is not an MD or DO. But, they do have to work under the direction of an MD or DO. So, trust me, they know what they are doing. Athletic Trainer's have to go through 4 years of college and then pass a National Board test. My point being, as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious, it is a medical professional. In this case, the medical professional is the Athletic Trainer. This is another case of an official thinking they are more important then they really are.
I totally disagree

This has nothing to do with an official thinking they are more important then the game. It is the case of an official KNOWING and FOLLOWING the rules.

Regardless of what you think the rules DO NOT say Athletic Trainer. They say from a physician (MD/DO).

This is an amateur baseball game and the team "can live' without this player for the remainder of the game.

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