BR gets tagged after overrunning 1stbase

[etn_ump]

Originally Posted by umpjong

In both of these cases, (either tagging him or tagging the base) you have an out. His action of tagging him or the base is an appeal. Im also not going to signal safe as he runs by due to the fact that I have nothing yet.

I've also got an out if the runner steps over the bag just before F3 catches the ball with his foot on the bag. Simple mechanics are your out you missed the base.

Uhh, I'm pretty sure your wrong on both of these.

Scratch that. I know you're wrong on both of these.

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by etn_ump

Uhh, I'm pretty sure your wrong on both of these.

Scratch that. I know you're wrong on both of these.

This same discussion came up earlier (not on a web site). A triple A minor league umpire curled his eyes and made it very clear that this runner is out - period. Bottom line is, he did not touch the base safely prior to being tagged or beat to the base. And then he asked, "why would you reward someone for missing a base?

Looked briefly for Fed variance, if there is one someone can post it. But sometimes common sense does prevail.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by umpjong

This same discussion came up earlier (not on a web site). A triple A minor league umpire curled his eyes and made it very clear that this runner is out - period. Bottom line is, he did not touch the base safely prior to being tagged or beat to the base.

I don't believe you. Pro instruction on this play is -- and has been for decades -- as others have posted: if the BR beats the ball to the base, then he is safe, and you signal safe, whether he touches the base or not. If not, then BR is liable to be put out on appeal.

Troll alert.

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I don't believe you. Pro instruction on this play is -- and has been for decades -- as others have posted: if the BR beats the ball to the base, then he is safe, and you signal safe, whether he touches the base or not. If not, then BR is liable to be put out on appeal.

Troll alert.

You can believe what you want, just telling you what he said.
And I do agree with his assessment. Again answer why you would reward a player for missing a base? This play at first base is a little different, as this is the base you can over run. I will agree that the close play discussed (where runner passed base without touching, and ball then being caught by F3 and on base) is a grey area, but again as he explained it, who touched the base first? If this is wrong then post verification. Just relating what I was told.

Originally Posted by umpjong

You can believe what you want, just telling you what he said.
And I do agree with his assessment. Again answer why you would reward a player for missing a base? This play at first base is a little different, as this is the base you can over run. I will agree that the close play discussed (where runner passed base without touching, and ball then being caught by F3 and on base) is a grey area, but again as he explained it, who touched the base first? If this is wrong then post verification. Just relating what I was told.

The reason you signal safe instead of no signal at all is that it is up to the defense to make sure the base was properly touched and if not, to properly appeal. To not make any call would signal to the defense that the B/R missed the base. That qualifies as coaching. The only time you don't signal safe is on a play at home plate where the runner misses home.

[UmpJM]

BigGuy,

Agree with everything you say, EXCEPT....

On a play at the plate, if the runner is "forced" to home, I think the proper mechanic is to signal "SAFE!" - as you would at the play at first.

If he is NOT forced (and must himself be tagged), then I believe the proper mechanic is to make no signal.

So, it's not that it's at home, it whether or not he must be tagged.

JM

[DG]

I will point out situation 1 in the BRD, simply because it seems to relate. EXCEPT: If the action is continuing and the tagged base is a "force" base, the defense makes the appeal merely be "stepping on the missed base".

This appears to be unique to FED, and thus the entry in BRD. And your minor league guy appears to be interpreting opposite from OBR, so be careful who you listen to.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by umpjong

Again answer why you would reward a player for missing a base?

Because the BR beat the throw to the base. Why would you reward a late throw?

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by umpjong

This same discussion came up earlier (not on a web site). A triple A minor league umpire curled his eyes and made it very clear that this runner is out - period. Bottom line is, he did not touch the base safely prior to being tagged or beat to the base. And then he asked, "why would you reward someone for missing a base?

Looked briefly for Fed variance, if there is one someone can post it. But sometimes common sense does prevail.

I'd show this from the JEA to your AAA MiLB contact.

Professional umpires are trained to render the "safe" signal and voice declaration at first base even though the batter-runner missed the base but is considered past the base when the tag of first base is made. This becomes an appeal play and the batter-runner would subsequently be called out for failure to properly touch the base. This is the proper mechanical procedure at all bases involving force plays. On plays which require a tag, professional umpires are instructed to make no call until the runner legally touches the base or the runner is tagged before legally touching the base.


Tim.

[LMSANS]

Can someone point me to the fed rule or interp on this play? I was overruled on this topic during a mechanics clinic recently and couldn't find anything in the rule or case book to support my argument.

Thanks

[DG]

Originally Posted by LMSANS

Can someone point me to the fed rule or interp on this play? I was overruled on this topic during a mechanics clinic recently and couldn't find anything in the rule or case book to support my argument.

Thanks

Case Book 8.2.3

Originally Posted by DG

Case Book 8.2.3

The case book is somewhat ambiguous about tagging the base. For example, B/R beats the throw but misses the base. F3 is still standing on the base when the throw comes in but F3 makes no indication that he is appealing. The call is still safe until you recognize that F3 is making a deliberate appeal. It's a fine line but since the "accidental appeal" has been banished, you have no option but to signal safe until F3 demonstrates an appeal. As earlier said, why would you reward the defense for a late throw? The intent is that the defense must RECOGNIZE that the base has been missed and then properly appeal.

[DG]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

The case book is somewhat ambiguous about tagging the base. For example, B/R beats the throw but misses the base. F3 is still standing on the base when the throw comes in but F3 makes no indication that he is appealing. The call is still safe until you recognize that F3 is making a deliberate appeal. It's a fine line but since the "accidental appeal" has been banished, you have no option but to signal safe until F3 demonstrates an appeal. As earlier said, why would you reward the defense for a late throw? The intent is that the defense must RECOGNIZE that the base has been missed and then properly appeal.

I don't see any ambiguity about 8.2.3 in the case book (F3 casually steps on first base, though he believes the runner has beaten the throw. RULING: B1 is out because a force play is being made on the runner and is the result of continuing action). It is clear, very clear. I don't see how you can see otherwise. You have OBR on the brain. See BRD item 1 for additional info.

My first post was this was unique to FED and FMSANS specifically asked for FED case play, which I provided and you disagreed with, stating an OBR interpretation. I agree with you on OBR, but you disagreed with a FED case play, and cited OBR interp.

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by umpjong

This same discussion came up earlier (not on a web site). A triple A minor league umpire curled his eyes and made it very clear that this runner is out - period. Bottom line is, he did not touch the base safely prior to being tagged or beat to the base. And then he asked, "why would you reward someone for missing a base?

Looked briefly for Fed variance, if there is one someone can post it. But sometimes common sense does prevail.

[emph added]
Is it training or experience that establishes this mechanic? I've never seen it at Little League! Is there a proper use on the field, or only in the training class?

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by LilLeaguer

[emph added]
I've never seen it at Little League!

There is much you won't see in Little League. Perhaps that's why the better LL umpires work other levels.